HiRez Poll King Crimson - Red [DVD-Audio/Blu-Ray Audio]

Please post your thoughts and comments on the 5.1 Surround DVD-Audio of this album. If you feel so inclined, let us know when and where you got it from. Please do not vote until you've listened to the disc a few times.

THANKS

Pre-release scans of the disc above were provided by Neil Wilkes. THANKS NEIL!

Glad to see the MLP 2.0 audio at 96/24.

I know this is a Quad Forum but there are too many releases where the 2.0 gets shorted by being in a lower resolution, often LPCM with the resolution unpublished. The Beatles Love comes to mind where I've recently learned the LPCM 2.0 is only 16/48.

Can't wait for these to arrive

Ahh, cool with the VU meter on the DVD-A disc. Looks good!

The Rang said:

Glad to see the MLP 2.0 audio at 96/24.

I know this is a Quad Forum but there are too many releases where the 2.0 gets shorted by being in a lower resolution, often LPCM with the resolution unpublished. The Beatles Love comes to mind where I've recently learned the LPCM 2.0 is only 16/48.

Can't wait for these to arrive

Click to expand...

I'm happy to say we are almost anally retentive about putting format/resolution grids on releases where possible.
I also prefer to see things describing the surround mix too - this is in the booklet here, but missing on all too many.
What wee should have is either:
1 - The surround performance on this disc was created from a full remix from the original multitrack tapes", or
2 - The surround performance on this disc was electronically recreated without the benefit of the oiriginal multitrack tapes".
IMHO (H = Honest), this way the buyer knows exactly what they will be getting into. I have ended up with pseudosurround on far too many occasions for my liking. Sure, when done well (and some of our members here are seriously good at this) it can be superb (The TOUP Led Zep "Whole Lotta LOve" springs immediately to mind here with the guitar slides running from fromnt to rear) but it is all too often simply "big stereo" with heavy use of L/R and reverb in the rears.

The 24/96 streams here were lovingly done by Simon Heyworth - as are all the stereo masters in the series. We thought long & hard about putting 24/96 in the Video_TS, but lack of space & the sad fact that only 16/48 LPCM is actually mandated for DVD-Video with 20 & 24 bit and 96KHz support being optional. As SRC on the fly can sound terrible (ringing artifacts) we took the 24/48 route, as even if a player chops down to 16-bits (and an awful lot of them do) you will not hear the effects of this as readily as you would SRC because a 24-16 conversion in the DAC will usually carry flat TPDF dither, making it's effects as close to inaudible as possible.
These discs really will have something for everyone.

Guys,

Thanks for getting this information out. I am even more convinced after reading Neil's post that these will be true works of art.
Following Jon's prompt, let's all support this effort.

I'm in.

neil wilkes said:

As SRC on the fly can sound terrible (ringing artifacts) we took the 24/48 route, as even if a player chops down to 16-bits (and an awful lot of them do) you will not hear the effects of this as readily as you would SRC because a 24-16 conversion in the DAC will usually carry flat TPDF dither, making it's effects as close to inaudible as possible.

Click to expand...

Neil,

What is SRC?

Thanks

The Rang said:

What is SRC?

Click to expand...

May I?
It's Sample Rate Conversion
DAC is Digital Analog Converter
TPDF Triangular Probability Density Function (just say Triangular dither )

Ge Someone said:

May I?
It's Sample Rate Conversion
DAC is Digital Analog Converter
TPDF Triangular Probability Density Function (just say Triangular dither )

Click to expand...

OK, Thanks

I think I understand SRC now, bit you lost me with TPDF

Sounds like someting from an old Star Trek episode, or a feature on a Carver amplifer.

Frantic said:

Guys,

Thanks for getting this information out. I am even more convinced after reading Neil's post that these will be true works of art.
Following Jon's prompt, let's all support this effort.

I'm in.

Click to expand...

I ordered RED and the COURT box set, then just added LIZARD to be all in.

neil wilkes said:

I'm happy to say we are almost anally retentive about putting format/resolution grids on releases where possible.
I also prefer to see things describing the surround mix too - this is in the booklet here, but missing on all too many.
What wee should have is either:
1 - The surround performance on this disc was created from a full remix from the original multitrack tapes", or
2 - The surround performance on this disc was electronically recreated without the benefit of the oiriginal multitrack tapes".
IMHO (H = Honest), this way the buyer knows exactly what they will be getting into. I have ended up with pseudosurround on far too many occasions for my liking. Sure, when done well (and some of our members here are seriously good at this) it can be superb (The TOUP Led Zep "Whole Lotta LOve" springs immediately to mind here with the guitar slides running from fromnt to rear) but it is all too often simply "big stereo" with heavy use of L/R and reverb in the rears.

The 24/96 streams here were lovingly done by Simon Heyworth - as are all the stereo masters in the series. We thought long & hard about putting 24/96 in the Video_TS, but lack of space & the sad fact that only 16/48 LPCM is actually mandated for DVD-Video with 20 & 24 bit and 96KHz support being optional. As SRC on the fly can sound terrible (ringing artifacts) we took the 24/48 route, as even if a player chops down to 16-bits (and an awful lot of them do) you will not hear the effects of this as readily as you would SRC because a 24-16 conversion in the DAC will usually carry flat TPDF dither, making it's effects as close to inaudible as possible.
These discs really will have something for everyone.

Click to expand...

What does TOUP stand for?

Rick

TOUP = Two Of Us Productions, some smart guysfrom somewhere that did excellent upmixes of stereo material, Beatles and LZ for example.

Neil,

In several forums there is still debate on whether or not hi-rez makes a difference.

As correctly pointed out, to make a valid comparison you need the same mastering on CD and in hi-rez, and very often the mastering of the CD and the hi-rez is different.

Are you able to tell us whether or not the CD of Red is the same mastering as the hi-rez stereo on the DVD-Audio? By this I mean that the CD has the same compression (or hopefully lack of this) and equalization as the hi-rez.

If this is the case, then Red will be a good test case for identifying the difference between CD and hi-rez. But of course if the CD has been compressed slightly and/or has a slightly different equalization then we are not able to make a valid comparison.

And as someone who has listened to hi-rez an CD, do you have a view on whether or not hi-rez (two channel) is better than CD?

I'm really looking forward to Red, but as I'm in Australia, I have a long wait from when Burning Shed tell me it has been shipped till I get it.

Cheers,
Michael

On the grounds that I did not do the stereo mastering, I cannot possibly say.
Personally, it is my experience that whilst CD can be done well, it rarely is.
16-bit audio is just too fragile sounding.
You have 65,536 possible values equivalent to analogue voltage, whereas in 24-bit you have 16,777,216 possible values.

Red has shipped!!! Just got notice from Burning Shed...

MichaelCPE said:

If this is the case, then Red will be a good test case for identifying the difference between CD and hi-rez. But of course if the CD has been compressed slightly and/or has a slightly different equalization then we are not able to make a valid comparison.

Click to expand...

Although it is Off Topic here, IMO the only valid way to compare would to take the output from the Hi-Res and convert it to CD format yourself (making sure to do all the steps correctly). Also very important is to match the levels exactly when comparing.
I'll stay out of this thread now until I have my Red, planned for the end of October.

Got my disk yesterday... postage says "Royal Mail" but quite possibly it was delivered by the Royal Air Force. Sometimes stuff shipped from the same zip code takes longer!

The 5.1 mix absolutely blows my mind, and a few of my neighbo(u)rs, too. Certainly a showcase disk, to be used for conversion of those remaining stereo-holdouts. Remarkable amount of noise from just 3 people. No, I know there's 5 guest musician on this one, but even the "pure" trio versions of Red and Fallen Angel sound tight and full.

I must say the MC brings out principally new dimensions in the music. Not just subtlety. All along in stereo, Red and Starless were my favorite tracks on this album. But now I see the Fallen Angel in a totally new "light", and it's a new #1 in my chart.

Kudos to Steve Wilson and Neil Wilkes for the fantastic work! Very aggressive mix, very playful. Just in my personal taste -- but I do think that using surrounds for ambiance only is a waste of 2 perfectly good speakers. Bruford's drumming particularly shines, 2 channels is just not enough for his work.

I am so looking forward to the rest of the catalog. Was only waiting for this audition to decide on the Court: you know, 2 disk vs THE BOX... no doubt anymore, box's ordered. The amount of care that went into this production reflects my love of this music, that's the way it should be done.

I'm just curious, what the others are waiting for? Why wouldn't The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Yes, Jethro Tull -- to start off a list, release their back catalog in 5.1 and make a few pennies, if not to please loyal fans and perhaps make a few new ones? I can't believe these releases are a net loss financially, though I'd like to know if anyone's got the actual numbers. Anyhow, I doubt Robert Fripp would lose money on this round, which is what -- the 5th on just the digital media? Good for him, the musical career and contribution to the world such as Crims must be rewarded.

First out, theCharm - congratulations!

theCharm said:

.....The 5.1 mix absolutely blows my mind, and a few of my neighbo(u)rs, too. Certainly a showcase disk, to be used for conversion of those remaining stereo-holdouts. Remarkable amount of noise from just 3 people. No, I know there's 5 guest musician on this one, but even the "pure" trio versions of Red and Fallen Angel sound tight and full.

I must say the MC brings out principally new dimensions in the music. Not just subtlety. All along in stereo, Red and Starless were my favorite tracks on this album. But now I see the Fallen Angel in a totally new "light", and it's a new #1 in my chart.

Kudos to Steve Wilson and Neil Wilkes for the fantastic work! Very aggressive mix, very playful. Just in my personal taste -- but I do think that using surrounds for ambiance only is a waste of 2 perfectly good speakers. Bruford's drumming particularly shines, 2 channels is just not enough for his work. ...

Click to expand...

I NEVER had any doubt in my mind about the mindblowingness of these mixes -especially if the cream of QQ were SSurround Sound consultants...amazan emailed me that mine has shippped...he he he

neil wilkes said:

On the grounds that I did not do the stereo mastering, I cannot possibly say.
Personally, it is my experience that whilst CD can be done well, it rarely is.
16-bit audio is just too fragile sounding.
You have 65,536 possible values equivalent to analogue voltage, whereas in 24-bit you have 16,777,216 possible values.

Click to expand...

So , Neil,
-putting aside the kind of people who can't hear the difference between an mp3 or a cd - what would be a resolution in audio where we wouldn't notice any difference from then on?
As in film, IIRC, the resolution is 2,500+ horizontal lines; then in audio, what would it be?
OK, this gets personal now for the sake of having an example.
Up to what resolution can you not hear a difference?
I can't say I have listened to 192 KHzStratospheric sampling rate,
but I can definitely tell 96/24 from 48/24.
Maybe it goes technical, Is sound so rich over 50K that you may need the 192 KHz resolution or is it overkill? (Love Colin Hay!)