Involve Surround Master - original & V2 - "Pumping" issue

[Lance7489]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced this with Involve's Surround Master. To set the record straight, I'm a extremely fussy music listener .............I own both the original & a V2 which I use both on 2 separate systems, The SQ mode is GREAT for all the 70's SQ stuff. The problem I'm having is with the "involve" mode. For TV it's excellent, for stuff encoded in RM or QS it's excellent, but with stereo music, I hear a lot of "pumping" going on, mostly with the center & front left channels. If I switch from 5.1 to 4.1, the pumping is diminished, but still some. A lot of songs sound fine but SOME display this slightly distorted, pumping thing in the channel's I've mentioned. The best example I can think of is Elton John's "Someone saved my life tonight". You really hear it when you isolate those channels (turn all others down & just listen to one) It does it in BOTH of my systems, on the same songs, so I don't think I have anything hooked up improperly. .....Has anyone noticed or experienced this ?? .......... Any suggestions ? (I don't use the RCA cables that came with the units, could that be it ?) ...... Like I mentioned, I absolutely LOVE what it does with the 70's quad formats (SQ, RM, QS etc), but when playing straight stereo recordings using the involve mode, the separation is great, but this issue really dampens my enthusiasm.

 

[ar surround]

I have never noticed any pumping or other artifacts whatsoever from my SM v2 on any source with typical listening. I do not use the 5.1 Involve mode all that often...only when the source material demands some help to stabilize the center image. However, I would surmise that isolating a specific channel or pair of channels may reveal the Involve logic doing its thing on certain stereo material.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

The best example I can think of is Elton John's "Someone saved my life tonight". You really hear it when you isolate those channels (turn all others down & just listen to one) It does it in BOTH of my systems, on the same songs, so I don't think I have anything hooked up improperly. ....

When you listen to just one ch, or back only, etc. You are not listening the way intended. High separation decoders rely a lot on masking with all chs working together. As separation enhancement is a dynamic process it requires a complimentary or balanced give & take between all chs. One example I'll mention is stereo that has very little natural rear level, if you raise the rear chs to a satisfactory level you will hear some anomalies. I am a picky listener as well with decent gear & I have never, ever heard pumping or mixing artifacts from my SM v2 under normal conditions.

 

[Lance7489]

When you listen to just one ch, or back only, etc. You are not listening the way intended. High separation decoders rely a lot on masking with all chs working together. As separation enhancement is a dynamic process it requires a complimentary or balanced give & take between all chs. One example I'll mention is stereo that has very little natural rear level, if you raise the rear chs to a satisfactory level you will hear some anomalies. I am a picky listener as well with decent gear & I have never, ever heard pumping or mixing artifacts from my SM v2 under normal conditions.

Fair point !! I did notice it when I walked towards certain speakers in my outdoor system (& only hear that speaker). When I stood in the center of the yard, in the "sweet spot", I didn't notice it. In my living room system, the speakers are much closer together & I only notice it when I turn all the other speakers off, but one.

 

[ar surround]

...when I walked towards certain speakers in my outdoor system...

You have an outdoor surround system. Now that's really cool.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

You have an outdoor surround system. Now that's really cool.

Wow that slipped right by me. Yes that is impressive. Hey @Lance7489 post some pics in Show Us Your Gear thread.

 

[Lance7489]

You have an outdoor surround system. Now that's really cool.

Yes, I have Klipsch "Rock speakers" in each corner of the yard & for the center channel. The sub is under our deck. I'm using a Parasound P7 preamp & a couple of old Yamaha late 80's vintage power amps. To power the sub, I have a Dayton Audio sub amp. It sounds great (as you could imagine) !! I use a couple of Denon universal disc players to play SACD & DVD audio surround. I use the Involve surround master to play the SQ, RM encoded stuff. I was also using it to enhance regular stereo music, but I'm rethinking that now, with the above described issue. ..... See, with the speakers in each corner of the yard, it's GREAT for separation BUT, unless you're right in the center of the yard, you'll always hear the speaker your closest to, hence discovering this pumping issue. ...... Pics to come !!!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Yes, I have Klipsch "Rock speakers" in each corner of the yard & for the center channel. The sub is under our deck. I'm using a Parasound P7 preamp & a couple of old Yamaha late 80's vintage power amps. To power the sub, I have a Dayton Audio sub amp. It sounds great (as you could imagine) !! I use a couple of Denon universal disc players to play SACD & DVD audio surround. I use the Involve surround master to play the SQ, RM encoded stuff. I was also using it to enhance regular stereo music, but I'm rethinking that now, with the above described issue. ..... See, with the speakers in each corner of the yard, it's GREAT for separation BUT, unless you're right in the center of the yard, you'll always hear the speaker your closest to, hence discovering this pumping issue. ...... Pics to come !!!

Love some pics, if you play something with heavy bass loud, does the sub start to drive the nails out of the deck, if not then maybe not loud enough eh

 

[Lance7489]

Love some pics, if you play something with heavy bass loud, does the sub start to drive the nails out of the deck, if not then maybe not loud enough eh

LOL, can't turn it up that loud, neighbors wouldn't be happy. Just turn it up loud enough to have nice, solid bottom end.

 

[ar surround]

LOL, can't turn it up that loud, neighbors wouldn't be happy. Just turn it up loud enough to have nice, solid bottom end.

Now that would seem like a great opportunity for an invitation to introduce them to the wonders of surround sound music.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Yes, I have Klipsch "Rock speakers" in each corner of the yard & for the center channel. The sub is under our deck. I'm using a Parasound P7 preamp & a couple of old Yamaha late 80's vintage power amps. To power the sub, I have a Dayton Audio sub amp. It sounds great (as you could imagine) !! I use a couple of Denon universal disc players to play SACD & DVD audio surround. I use the Involve surround master to play the SQ, RM encoded stuff. I was also using it to enhance regular stereo music, but I'm rethinking that now, with the above described issue. ..... See, with the speakers in each corner of the yard, it's GREAT for separation BUT, unless you're right in the center of the yard, you'll always hear the speaker your closest to, hence discovering this pumping issue. ...... Pics to come !!!

Do Klipsch Rock Speakers also play classical & jazz?

Anyway, a nice & quite expensive set up for casual listening. I hope friends & family invited over appreciate it!

 

[jaybird100]

Since I use my v.2 pretty much only for music, and only use the 4.1 modes (I don't like a center channel for music), I've never noticed any kind of pumping effect. And when the system's on, so is the SM.

 

[chucky3042]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced this with Involve's Surround Master. To set the record straight, I'm a extremely fussy music listener .............I own both the original & a V2 which I use both on 2 separate systems, The SQ mode is GREAT for all the 70's SQ stuff. The problem I'm having is with the "involve" mode. For TV it's excellent, for stuff encoded in RM or QS it's excellent, but with stereo music, I hear a lot of "pumping" going on, mostly with the center & front left channels. If I switch from 5.1 to 4.1, the pumping is diminished, but still some. A lot of songs sound fine but SOME display this slightly distorted, pumping thing in the channel's I've mentioned. The best example I can think of is Elton John's "Someone saved my life tonight". You really hear it when you isolate those channels (turn all others down & just listen to one) It does it in BOTH of my systems, on the same songs, so I don't think I have anything hooked up improperly. .....Has anyone noticed or experienced this ?? .......... Any suggestions ? (I don't use the RCA cables that came with the units, could that be it ?) ...... Like I mentioned, I absolutely LOVE what it does with the 70's quad formats (SQ, RM, QS etc), but when playing straight stereo recordings using the involve mode, the separation is great, but this issue really dampens my enthusiasm.

Hi
Just saw this thread. What bothers me most is you are saying front left. Could you try swapping the inputs and see if the pump swaps sides or stays front left. Also do the same with the front left and right outputs, see if the issue stays front left.
Chucky

 

[Lance7489]

Do Klipsch Rock Speakers also play classical & jazz?

Anyway, a nice & quite expensive set up for casual listening. I hope friends & family invited over appreciate it!

Casual listening ???? No such thing !

 

[Lance7489]

Hi
Just saw this thread. What bothers me most is you are saying front left. Could you try swapping the inputs and see if the pump swaps sides or stays front left. Also do the same with the front left and right outputs, see if the issue stays front left.
Chucky

I'll try it when I get a chance.

 

[Lance7489]

Hi
Just saw this thread. What bothers me most is you are saying front left. Could you try swapping the inputs and see if the pump swaps sides or stays front left. Also do the same with the front left and right outputs, see if the issue stays front left.
Chucky

It's strange that it's happening with both units (original & V2) & on 2 different sound systems. At first, I thought it was just the original. The speakers in my backyard outdoor system are somewhat far apart, so it was easier to notice. I took the V2 (which was used in my living room system) & hooked it up to the outdoor setup & the same thing was happening ! This was in the 5.1 mode. When I switched it to 4.1, it's not nearly as noticeable, but still there a bit. Thinking there's something weird with just the outdoor system, I hooked up the V2 back to living room system. I never noticed the pumping at all in that setup before, but I shut of all the other speakers except for the front left, really listened closely & it was there too ....... really weird !! .........One thing of note: If I have just the front left speaker on (with all the others off) & unplug the right channel input to the surround master, the "pumping" disappears altogether (with only the left channel input plugged in). When I go ahead & plug in the right channel input, the pumping returns to the left front speaker (with both right & left inputs plugged in). So, in other words, there is no pumping with just 1 input channel plugged in. .......... I'll go ahead & try what you suggested & let you know what happens.

 

[chucky3042]

It's strange that it's happening with both units (original & V2) & on 2 different sound systems. At first, I thought it was just the original. The speakers in my backyard outdoor system are somewhat far apart, so it was easier to notice. I took the V2 (which was used in my living room system) & hooked it up to the outdoor setup & the same thing was happening ! This was in the 5.1 mode. When I switched it to 4.1, it's not nearly as noticeable, but still there a bit. Thinking there's something weird with just the outdoor system, I hooked up the V2 back to living room system. I never noticed the pumping at all in that setup before, but I shut of all the other speakers except for the front left, really listened closely & it was there too ....... really weird !! .........One thing of note: If I have just the front left speaker on (with all the others off) & unplug the right channel input to the surround master, the "pumping" disappears altogether (with only the left channel input plugged in). When I go ahead & plug in the right channel input, the pumping returns to the left front speaker (with both right & left inputs plugged in). So, in other words, there is no pumping with just 1 input channel plugged in. .......... I'll go ahead & try what you suggested & let you know what happens.

Really weird

 

[kfbkfb]

I thought the SM decoder used variable matrix only (w/multiband) decoding for all decode modes (no gain riding).


Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

I thought the SM decoder used variable matrix only (w/multiband) decoding for all decode modes (no gain riding).


Kirk Bayne

Correct, that's one of the reasons it's weird. Pumping just should not happen.

 

[Lance7489]

Correct, that's one of the reasons it's weird. Pumping just should not happen.

In pumping, could I be using the wrong term ? What's happening is during certain music passages, the high end sounds like it's fading in & out along with a little sprinkle of distortion. I thought that's what pumping meant but maybe not. Also, does the fact that unplugging the opposite channels input to the SM stops it mean anything ?