Please post your comments, thoughts and observations.......
HiRez Poll Joplin, Janis/Big Brother & the Holding Company - CHEAP THRILLS [SACD]
- Thread starter JonUrban
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Surround mix is not that great. I give it an 8 as the music is pretty good.
Kazaam
701 Club - QQ All-Star
I'm finding myself agreeing with those who said that the surround mix might not be so hot. I don't necessarily have a problem with simply using reverb for the surrounds, but I feel they are too soft regardless. Last night I tried jacking up the channel levels, but I couldn't quite get it to a point that satisfied me. I suspect these tracks were recorded in smaller-sized venues? If so, it seems to me that the surrounds should've been louder in order to make it sound more realistic. Or maybe the problem is that there simply isn't much there?
The tracks are killer, though! Very good performances. I'm thinking a 7.
The tracks are killer, though! Very good performances. I'm thinking a 7.
I gave this one a '4' for the mix....it would be a '7' or '8' for music and sound quality, but that's really not the issue here, right?
The first thing that struck me, after first listen, was something was all wrong: not so much that the live cuts were basically reverbed in back(to be fair, there is some crowd isolation, though that's hardly impressive), with the band in front--makes a bit of sense given the vintage of the recording--but that the studio recordings were, essentially, mixed the same way. Does this make any sense? Are we to believe the stuff recorded Columbia's NYC and LA studios were anything less than 4 or 8-track? So why is everything mixed to essentially seem the same? That's why vexed me about this one, that there is essentially no special rear instrumentation to "Piece Of My Heart," which is the one cut I wanted to hear with a lot of different things going on!
Sound quality is nice, but mix quality is.....nearly shameful, IMO.
One thing to not have much going on with KIND OF BLUE or TIME OUT, but sheesh, this is 1968!
ED
The first thing that struck me, after first listen, was something was all wrong: not so much that the live cuts were basically reverbed in back(to be fair, there is some crowd isolation, though that's hardly impressive), with the band in front--makes a bit of sense given the vintage of the recording--but that the studio recordings were, essentially, mixed the same way. Does this make any sense? Are we to believe the stuff recorded Columbia's NYC and LA studios were anything less than 4 or 8-track? So why is everything mixed to essentially seem the same? That's why vexed me about this one, that there is essentially no special rear instrumentation to "Piece Of My Heart," which is the one cut I wanted to hear with a lot of different things going on!
Sound quality is nice, but mix quality is.....nearly shameful, IMO.
One thing to not have much going on with KIND OF BLUE or TIME OUT, but sheesh, this is 1968!
ED
bugdaddy
400 Club - QQ All-Star
Ed Bishop said:
That nails it. Each time I listen hoping it will make sense. It doesn't.
When I first heard this title, I was pretty happy with it, as shown in this thread:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1041&highlight=turtle
However, after learning that the audience was faked, it really took the wind out of my sails. The two songs that sound really discrete sound that way only because the audience sounds WERE discrete, and not even recorded at the event!
So, take a stereo studio tape, mix in another audience tape, and voila! Discrete surround-sound!
But that's only for two tracks. The remaining tracks not only have the fake audience, but they're not even discrete.
As a surround title, this one bites. However, the music just kicks butt and this has always been a fave of mine. I would sure like to hear it without the fake audience... all these years I thought it was legit.
This one gets four points.
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1041&highlight=turtle
However, after learning that the audience was faked, it really took the wind out of my sails. The two songs that sound really discrete sound that way only because the audience sounds WERE discrete, and not even recorded at the event!
So, take a stereo studio tape, mix in another audience tape, and voila! Discrete surround-sound!
But that's only for two tracks. The remaining tracks not only have the fake audience, but they're not even discrete.
As a surround title, this one bites. However, the music just kicks butt and this has always been a fave of mine. I would sure like to hear it without the fake audience... all these years I thought it was legit.
This one gets four points.
Kazaam
701 Club - QQ All-Star
Eugenius said:
In light of everyone elses posts... And given what I said previously about this album, which I still believe to be true... And considering how I've rated other discs... I am beginning to wonder if I voted slightly higher than I should have? If I were to re-vote, I'd probably go with something not too much lower than a 7, but still somewhat lower? Hmmm... It makes me think.
dprokopy
Well-known Member
I picked this one up as part of my order of cheap Sony discs through Sony's online music store. I'd actually ordered it before I read the rather negative reviews on here, otherwise I might have passed. Oh, well. Anyway, I took it for a spin this weekend. It wasn't awful, but it's certainly nothing to write home about, for sure. I can't even really tell if they genuinely "remixed" this for surround, or just processed it to wrap around slightly, with some reverb in the rears. Some of the tracks are very clearly genuine surround, with the applause stuck squarely in the rears. But those are the exception. Pretty disappointing, too, as this one had a lot of potential, in my opinion. Still, great performances all around. I gave it a "6".
Anyone know if this was ever done up for Quad originally?
Anyone know if this was ever done up for Quad originally?
dprokopy said:
Yep, two tracks: "Turtle Blues" and "Ball and Chain". They sound very clean and I was initially impressed with them. However, I have learned that the audience was faked. These are studio recordings with separate audience recordings tacked on. Lame.
Then there are the rest of the tunes. Fake audience combined with synthesized surround-sound. Double lame.
Still, you can't fault the music. And the "fake audience" is an inherent part of the product since its first release in 1968, so we can't blame the SACD release for that.
However, this would have been a much more compelling release if they had scrapped the fake audience altogether and gave us a true surround mix from the original studio multi-tracks. Ah, but that would have required some actual effort...
sspsandy
600 Club - QQ All-Star
It was my understanding that this was a live show recorded at the Fillmore West, it even has an intro by Bill Graham. Turtle Blues I'd buy since it has that in a small club sound, but the rest sounds pretty live to my ears.
sspsandy said:
I tried to convince myself that it was legit as well. I was pretty much shot down in flames over at the Hoffman forum. I'm going to have to bow to the "experts" on this, since I sure as heck don't know for sure.
Why did they even bother with this mix, as there has been a boot of this title for 15 years. This was a backdoor CBS title that has a good mix, but as a 10th generation dub, could sure sound a lot better. Just another case in point, Sony has no idea what it has. The quad era titles are fantastic, from soul to rock, and could be released with a budget of 5 grand a title. Since they decided to back out of SACD, maybe it is time to try special markets again. They will want about 5 bucks a cd, wanna make a record company?JonUrban said:Please post your comments, thoughts and observations.......
quadtrade said:
Tad,
Why can't DTS Entertainment pick up where they left off and do more Sony/CBS titles? It would seem that the market is actually bigger now than when the first DTS CDs came out.
:-jon
neil wilkes
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
AFAIK, only Pearl was done in Quad originally.
I don't have the SACD of this due to no SACD capability as yet whilst I save up for a Denon 3910.
However - these are very disappointing reviews - I'm a long time Joplin fan.
As far as this being genuinely "live", I was always under the impression it was done in a similar way to one of the early Slade albums, "Slade Alive" - from just before they went big. They did a "live in the Studio" album, with some great tracks including a cover of "Darlin' be home soon". Isn't this a similar deal?
I don't have the SACD of this due to no SACD capability as yet whilst I save up for a Denon 3910.
However - these are very disappointing reviews - I'm a long time Joplin fan.
As far as this being genuinely "live", I was always under the impression it was done in a similar way to one of the early Slade albums, "Slade Alive" - from just before they went big. They did a "live in the Studio" album, with some great tracks including a cover of "Darlin' be home soon". Isn't this a similar deal?
First of all i suppose, is the fact that all those early titles from CBS and Polygram and the little known folk like Bill Mize and Billie Meyers, were done by Brad. His determination to revive quadraphonics, more specifically to get us listening to a soundfield again, and the fact we could slip under the radar at that time. We were getting titles from special markets, the anything you can do to market this crap again bin. After the first round they wanted more dough per sold piece. Someone upstairs took notice and probably got greedy instead of nurturing the market, and letting us run. DTS itself had not a whole lot to do with this early push, except to encode, as they had the only box for a long time, one of their very big goofs. But the market seemed grim after the first 2 years, Brad became ill and died rather quickly. DTS began to make its money by licencing in receivers, and slashing its budget in the entertainment division side. I don't think they ever thought these 70s titles were much of anything but a way to get a small # of people interested in keeping their codec. They needed us at the time as they failed in the huge battle of making themselves the mandatory scheme on DVD video. The entertainment division it just a bit player in DTS now. SO.... i imagine there might be someone interested, but the legwork is very intensive and ya gotta have some dough to jumpstart. Perhaps an existing small label would take on this endeavor, but all this format change brings massive caution, uncertainty, and indecision.JonUrban said:
robertawillisjr
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Messages
- 13
Good music, lousy production. Thought so the first time around and haven't heard anything to change my mind.
Here's the way I always thought this album was recorded, based on the cover that said "LIVE MATERIAL recorded at Bill Graham's Fillmore Auditorium" (emphasis mine):
Combination of the 2 - live from Fillmore with overdubs? (not too many, sounds almost the same on the Montery DVD).
I Need a Man to Love - live from Fillmore with LOTS of overdubs (how many guitars do you hear at the end? There were only two guitarists in the band).
Summertime - studio
Piece of My Heart - studio (there are even film clips of these sessions, shown in the "Janis" movie)
Turtle Blues - studio (album cover says "vibes courtesy of Barney's Beanery". Wasn't Barneys a restaurant - not a club?)
Oh Sweet Mary - Fillmore with overdubs? Could be a studio recording
Ball and Chain - Fillmore. Overdubs? (not too many I would guess).
Anyway - that's the way I always saw it since '68. The only track that I ever questioned the origin of was Oh Sweet Mary. I'm STILL not sure about that one.
Combination of the 2 - live from Fillmore with overdubs? (not too many, sounds almost the same on the Montery DVD).
I Need a Man to Love - live from Fillmore with LOTS of overdubs (how many guitars do you hear at the end? There were only two guitarists in the band).
Summertime - studio
Piece of My Heart - studio (there are even film clips of these sessions, shown in the "Janis" movie)
Turtle Blues - studio (album cover says "vibes courtesy of Barney's Beanery". Wasn't Barneys a restaurant - not a club?)
Oh Sweet Mary - Fillmore with overdubs? Could be a studio recording
Ball and Chain - Fillmore. Overdubs? (not too many I would guess).
Anyway - that's the way I always saw it since '68. The only track that I ever questioned the origin of was Oh Sweet Mary. I'm STILL not sure about that one.
The MC mix is terrible. The only saving grace is this is a great album and you still get the SACD stereo tracks. Stick with those!
doesn't do a great deal for me musically, maybe it's a generational thing!?
"you had to be there", etc..
the mix and sound quality aren't up to much and i doubt i'll be falling over myself to play it again anytime soon.
ah, well, nice to have it for the collection, i suppose.. and i didn't pay much for it so, not all doom and gloom.
a "5" from me.
2 for Janis,
1 for it being in surround/sacd at all (!),
1 for that Mercedes Benz track
and 1 more point for the amazing cover art (albeit reduced to postage stamp size here..!)
"you had to be there", etc..
the mix and sound quality aren't up to much and i doubt i'll be falling over myself to play it again anytime soon.
ah, well, nice to have it for the collection, i suppose.. and i didn't pay much for it so, not all doom and gloom.
a "5" from me.
2 for Janis,
1 for it being in surround/sacd at all (!),
1 for that Mercedes Benz track
and 1 more point for the amazing cover art (albeit reduced to postage stamp size here..!)
