Newest ATV is lacking in build quality

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- he claimed the PSU magically transformed fake Atmos mixes sound into legitimate Atmos.

? Ummmm... I have 3 threads I have posted on total and I have nothing deleted or locked. I have never deleted a post. Atmos is Atmos, its a emcoded format. Ummm... I am not a fan of ATMOS tho because of the processing involved. I prefer PCM in 4 channels, not 5.1. What is fake Atmos ? I am not promoting a product. I am answering questions others have asked.
When he started talking about these mods improving SQ I went "What? When did matrix quad have anything to do with Apple TV?"
Yes in digital audio, of all forms, its well established that jitter plays a key part in SQ. This is well established science. A really good science study on jitter was doen in 1998 by Dolby and was published in the AES journal. AES Convention Papers Forum » Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality

Its audible, its science, its well defined.

By reducing jitter, in HDMI, sound quality will improve. Its science. The part that is not well defined is how jitter can affect picture.

Quad has nothing to do with AppleTV that i know of ? ATMOS, 5.1 music and 2ch music off things like Tidal, Apple Music and even playing files off a local server do have to do with a ATV. Yes, myself, and others, have done mods on the ATV that improve sound quality by sharply reducing jitter. Its science.

I ran into a guy on a forum in Australia who wanted to do some mods himself and then wanted to do a good AB.. I provided him the basics on what to do himself. I suggested the things to do with the most impact that were cheap to do..

He did them a few weeks back and posted his results. He clearly heard differences. He is using a ATV for music only playback.

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/594477-appletv-x/page/3/#comment-6308525
I would be happy to help anyone who wants to make thier own and do thier own mods. You could get the same results he reported for like $150 + the time and effort. I just take this whole thing to a crazy level with mods I do,, for my own unit. I am not promoting a product, I am talking about mods I did and you can too.
 
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Yowza! Wasn't that deadly boat fire in California a few years ago caused by a wallwart charger too?

I keep all mine on powerbars with a switch after reading about that.

Re: older ATV versions, how has Apple been with legacy support for those things? I'd be concerned about deliberate obsolescence in the future.
Yea switching power supply wall warts are crazy. They spray RF noise, cause power line noise, AND fail WAY WAY more often then a linear supply and fail in scary ways.

You can get way better linear supplys, but, they are big and heavy. People today want tiny and light as a feather. Never mind the downsides. Of course a switching supply is also WAY cheaper to make and ship with your product.
 
OK, You hooked me, I just grabbed what's promised to be a brand new 64gb 2169 off ebay for $110 shipped. I've been using a early A1842 32gb with that danged touch-pad remote for a few years now.



And they are, here's where you and I are parting ways. There's no science behind your claimed "magic". Please supply the results of scientifically, bias controlled and overseen DBT testing.

The 64GB A2169's are not really worth any extra money. No one really uses local storage on a ATV. It gets used if you play games,, but for the normal apps doing streaming, I dont know of anyone ever running out of space on a 32GB. Apple mostly uses this trick to get more money from people as the larger chips are only a tiny amount more money.

Magic ? I don't claim magic. I stand on science. As such I don't discard evidence that is contrary to what we can measure. I offer the many posted reviews done by people, and reviewers, who have done ABs. These are posted in various forums and even done by someone here, Steve Bruzonsky. He did not think a ATV could be better. He got one and spent months with it and other devices like a Oppo and Kaleidescape. He went to lengths to remove bias. His conclusions and discussions on Whats Best summed up what i hear from all the 250+ owners. Its ALWAYS the same from everyone. The posts on it from others are always the same. They discuss the same things being better.

KEEP IN MIND... I came into this going, BAHHHH.. ATV is ****. NO WAY it can be any better. I spent weeks in shock. I spent months trying to understand what was going on. Its gotta be jitter.

I WILL NOT discard the body of evidence from all the people who have done ABs, blind ABs, used a modded unit and a stock unit for month month at a time and gone back for a month, then back again.

Post production guys, EXPERTS in picture quality, see dramatic differences.

You don't need to believe me. I have a huge number of posts all over forums all over the world that discuss that mods matter on a ATV. I have guys who have done their own mods and posted that they mattered..

Almost all my sales came from a current owner showing a friend. Or. My distributor and 2 dealers do direct ABs with stock units. I don't advertize, I barely even post on forums. Its all been word of mouth.

My distributor and I have never had a client go "I dont see it".. All we hear is "I can't use my system without it". You can see that in posts on forums.

I am not here posting about my product, this thread is not about a AppleTV X. I posted a video showing build quality differences. I have discussed what *I* do to my ATV. This got off topic and its best to bring it back to on topic posts. If someone wants to start a thread on the AppleTV X, I would be glad to answer questions and debate it and its merits. However there is already a LOT of that discussion out there on a lot of forums. I referenced these in this thread. Lets stay on topic, ATV build quality.
 
Bottom line is the Applevt4k can stream and play multichannel music and Atmos music - Apple Music!!!!
This is a subject of interest to forum members! Just like the Surround Master is discussed here and of interest to forum members (and I bought one after learning of it on this forum - to which I offer my thanks). Its ok to be skeptical, or costs much more than I will spend or can afford. But if you're not interested in something, why post in a thread at all? Some forum members use an Appletv4k and stream Apple Music and listen to Dolby Atmos that way - so this thread is of interest to some here - like me!
 
Yes in digital audio, of all forms, its well established that jitter plays a key part in SQ. This is well established science. A really good science study on jitter was doen in 1998 by Dolby and was published in the AES journal. AES Convention Papers Forum » Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality
That was when digital signals usually went straight to a DAC, so yes the timing variations due to jitter would affect the output of the DAC. But that is not what happens with HDMI, especially to the audio. The HDMI input almost always goes into RAM these days, to then have video processing applied and to extract the audio and then send it on somewhere. Provided the HDMI jitter is low enough for the RAM copy at the receiving end to exactly match what the sender had, then it is a 100% accurate copy. If the data is clocked out again eg to a DAC or over another HDMI link, it will be with a new local clock that has nothing to do with the incoming HDMI clock. These systems are all basically computers inside now, and everything is buffered in RAM which is why we have lip sync issues to deal with. And if the HDMI jitter is high enough that the RAM copy is not 100% correct, well things will go rapidly downhill with that much jitter.

And by the way, "SQ" is the name of one of the 1970s legacy analogue quadraphonic matrix systems that encodes 4 channels in a stereo signal. Using the term SQ on here to mean Sound Quality will confuse people, because this is a quadraphonic site.
 
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Alas, many tech “innovations” have ended up being little more than fads once all is said and done. The old quad records being one of them.
Yea your right, also "beauty is in the eye" is a big part of it all.
Sadly quad failed more due to the weaknesses of the playback technologies than anything IMO.
Thankfully we have all this new tech along with popular listening options like "Atmos soundbars" to
offer the market some strength in sales numbers.
What a wonderful thing it's turned out to be, to have all those original Quad master tapes to go back
to and release to market playable on all the new discrete high-res digital gear, along with those who love the classic gear and formats. wOOt.
 
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That was when digital signals usually went straight to a DAC, so yes the timing variations due to jitter would affect the output of the DAC. But that is not what happens with HDMI, especially to the audio. The HDMI input almost always goes into RAM these days, to then have video processing applied and to extract the audio and then send it on somewhere. Provided the HDMI jitter is low enough for the RAM copy at the receiving end to exactly match what the sender had, then it is a 100% accurate copy. If the data is clocked out again eg to a DAC or over another HDMI link, it will be with a new local clock that has nothing to do with the incoming HDMI clock. These systems are all basically computers inside now, and everything is buffered in RAM which is why we have lip sync issues to deal with. And if the HDMI jitter is high enough that the RAM copy is not 100% correct, well things will go rapidly downhill with that much jitter.

And by the way, "SQ" is the name of one of the 1970s legacy analogue quadraphonic matrix systems that encodes 4 channels in a stereo signal. Using the term SQ on here to mean Sound Quality will confuse people, because this is a quadraphonic site.

Generally I agree with you. I agree, and you will see that i agree and discuss this multiple times in a lot of forums besides here. The problem is I have seen a difference in picture and sound where I induced higher levels of jitter on a HDMI link. BUT thats just me and its subjective. However, I firmly believe SOMETHING is occurring. Your thinking in digital terms as I did at first. Then I jumped in with test equip and really LOOKED at this.

The REALLY freaky thing I have been involved in blind ABs in is with digital audio via ethernet and USB. Ethernet is the most mind bending technically. Digital audio delivered via ethernet is done so asynchronously. The music bits are modulated into a very complex, very analog, system that uses five Ethernet voltage levels and encodes two bits per clock cycle using four different voltage levels in each pair; the fifth voltage level is used for error correction. This is just the very surface of this modulation, but, its messy for sure. BUT on the rcv end it demodulates all that, does error correction and produces the audio bits. This is messy but has buffers and lots of corrections. After that chip the data is dumped into a large buffer.. A separate process then reads out the buffer with its own super clean clock. IE reclocked.. Then played.. BUT... Something REALLY freaky as at work here that I have NO CLUE how.. INSANELY Ethernet cables matter. WTF. Ethernet switches matter. WTF.. TONS of discussion on this and lots of blind AB.. I have done that AB a lot on really high end systems. Its real !?! WTF... I can easily do a blind AB and with 100% accuracy pick out 2 ethernet cables..

WTF... That makes NO SENSE... The music packets are read into a huge buffer in a serious DAC with a impressive reclocking..

So WHat the hell is going on ?

I jumped into this with $400,000 in rented test equip. I found ethernet jitter, all manner of noise. I found RF that was leaking into the rcv gear.. I then jumped inside the gear. I looked CLOSELY at the data lines feeding the DAC.. I found tiny changes in jitter coing into the DAC chip !?! WTF... STepping back in the circuit it was REALLY interesting.. The Ethernet rcvr chip spit out data that was a bit jittery. The CPU is of course interrupting to handle the incoming data from the ethernet stream. This jittery incoming data was causing some CPU jitter because it was, and had to be, intrupt driven. The same CPU also clocked out the data from the buffer and feeding it to the DAC chip. So while the overall clock was high accuracy and low phase noise, the bytes coming in had jitter because the CPU jittered that was induced by the ethernet jitter...

Hmmmmmmm..... OK... That makes sense... BUT does this affect cause the sound difference ?, I induced a LOT of jitter on the ethernet signal, YES it was audible, measurable and a easy blind AB.. BUT.... Subjectively, it sounded different.. It was NOT the whole affect.. I think the spectrum of the jitter also matters and I did not have a easy way to induce different spectra of jitter.

Also there were affects on the power supplies. If you look at the supplies for the ethernet chip you see noise.. This can be the same supply, poorly bypassed, that feeds other chips / sub systems. So I could see noise from the ethernet decoding on the power rail and this *might* get into other chips on this same rail as this stuff is always poorly filtered.

Moving to HDMI... Lots of the same thing.

The HDMI has a LOT of error correction. Like A LOT.. Bit by bit as it demodulates it causes very slight variations in decoding times. A error takes a tiny amount longer. So the hyper complex HDMI modulation has a LOT of jitter as its also splitting and then combining 3/4 lanes of modulation. Demodulating this and dropping this into a buffer again ends up with some amount of overall control jitter that you can see looking at the display driver chips on a Sony OLED. It turns out different HDMI cables cause affects all the way to the display drivers. Exactly how that occurs I dont know fully. But the HDMI data coming in really drives clocking of the whole system. I would suspect a surround decoder has this same issue as well. I have not measured a Datasat RS20i for this affect.

SO.. While YES,, the bytes are dropped into a buffer and read out.. The clocking of all that ends up being affected by the incoming signal in indirect ways..

OF COURSE... This is all my own research. So you can take it with a grain of salt if you like :).. All this research I did over 6 months gave me a good insight into my own products and what to do to make things better. Soooo, I am not out to change the world. I got what i needed. I have no need to "prove" this to the world at large with some kind of study. That would be a waste of time for me, I know whats up already.
 
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The 64GB A2169's are not really worth any extra money. No one really uses local storage on a ATV. It gets used if you play games,, but for the normal apps doing streaming, I dont know of anyone ever running out of space on a 32GB. Apple mostly uses this trick to get more money from people as the larger chips are only a tiny amount more money.
Sorry to hear that, thankfully it really didn't cost me any more than a 32gb version. Brand new ones were all right around $100 on ebay.
I was hoping the larger memory might make the UI more responsive, maybe it's due to a slowness in the servers? I don't know but guess I'll find out in a few days, it's on the way.
 
Yea your right, also "beauty is in the eye" is a big part of it all.
Sadly quad failed more due to the weaknesses of the playback technologies than anything IMO.
Thankfully we have all this new tech along with popular listening options like "Atmos soundbars" to
offer the market some strength in sales numbers.
What a wonderful thing it's turned out to be, to have all those original Quad master tapes to go back
to and release to market playable on all the new discrete high-res digital gear, along with those who love the classic gear and formats. wOOt.

I love quad.. I love doing it vintage.. These digital thingy, just too many bits and pieces.. Gimme some vinyl quad...
 
Sorry to hear that, thankfully it really didn't cost me any more than a 32gb version. Brand new ones were all right around $100 on ebay.
I was hoping the larger memory might make the UI more responsive, maybe it's due to a slowness in the servers? I don't know but guess I'll find out in a few days, it's on the way.

Its OK.. Why not have it be 64. If it turns out to be a collectable best of device, you have the right one.

Ive never been bothered by app opening speed or how fast it starts a stream.

Make sure you use ethernet if you can to your router. Do a speedtest.net test ( there is a app for that ) and it can test out at 940Mbps u/d.. The higher your speed the quicker it will be at pulling data.
 
OF COURSE... This is all my own research. So you can take it with a grain of salt if you like :).. All this research I did over 6 months gave me a good insight into my own products and what to do to make things better. Soooo, I am not out to change the world. I got what i needed. I have no need to "prove" this to the world at large with some kind of study. That would be a waste of time for me, I know whats up already.
Not a grain of salt but by the kilos.
You need to bring in some competent EE's to oversee your measurement and DBT procedures.
Something is badly amiss in your claimed results.
 
Not a grain of salt but by the kilos.
You need to bring in some competent EE's to oversee your measurement and DBT procedures.
Something is badly amiss in your claimed results.
Hahaha... Im a EE... You caught my history right ? Making the best CRT projector ever made ? As reviewed in every mag at the time. Maybe you missed my post in the new user forum ?

Again. this is off topic. This thread is about quality differences between the 2 ATVs. I think its best we agree to disagree and move on.
 
That was when digital signals usually went straight to a DAC, so yes the timing variations due to jitter would affect the output of the DAC. But that is not what happens with HDMI, especially to the audio. The HDMI input almost always goes into RAM these days, to then have video processing applied and to extract the audio and then send it on somewhere. Provided the HDMI jitter is low enough for the RAM copy at the receiving end to exactly match what the sender had, then it is a 100% accurate copy. If the data is clocked out again eg to a DAC or over another HDMI link, it will be with a new local clock that has nothing to do with the incoming HDMI clock. These systems are all basically computers inside now, and everything is buffered in RAM which is why we have lip sync issues to deal with. And if the HDMI jitter is high enough that the RAM copy is not 100% correct, well things will go rapidly downhill with that much jitter.

And by the way, "SQ" is the name of one of the 1970s legacy analogue quadraphonic matrix systems that encodes 4 channels in a stereo signal. Using the term SQ on here to mean Sound Quality will confuse people, because this is a quadraphonic site.
Thanks Owen. Most special interests have some unique abbreviations or trade names. While SQ standing for sound quality makes total sense in a forum dedicated to the absolute best possible sound, here we have a site called QuadraphonicQuad. Yes, there's overlap in interests.
As we know, the primary ways quad was delivered before the digital era were matrix and discreet (I'm calling CD-4 discreet for simplicity). Matrix of course had several systems of which the major systems turned out to be SQ and QS.

To sum up, if one was to describe the sound quality of a given SQ recording, one might say "the SQ of the SQ recording". This is confusing and jarring to me, much like capitalizing a word that is not an abbreviation.
Just a pet peeve of mine.
I only jump in for clarification to some who might not know why some might prefer time taken to type "sound quality" to disambiguate from the format of SQ, in usage on a quad forum. And an ATV is an all terrain vehicle in most common usage.
 
Thanks Owen. Most special interests have some unique abbreviations or trade names. While SQ standing for sound quality makes total sense in a forum dedicated to the absolute best possible sound, here we have a site called QuadraphonicQuad. Yes, there's overlap in interests.
As we know, the primary ways quad was delivered before the digital era were matrix and discreet (I'm calling CD-4 discreet for simplicity). Matrix of course had several systems of which the major systems turned out to be SQ and QS.

To sum up, if one was to describe the sound quality of a given SQ recording, one might say "the SQ of the SQ recording". This is confusing and jarring to me, much like capitalizing a word that is not an abbreviation.
Just a pet peeve of mine.
I only jump in for clarification to some who might not know why some might prefer time taken to type "sound quality" to disambiguate from the format of SQ, in usage on a quad forum. And an ATV is an all terrain vehicle in most common usage.

I shall refrain from ever uaing SQ again to describe sound quality. Not sure where I picked this up. Your right. I apologize.

I shall now refer to The Quality Of Sound.. QS... hehehehehe...

These new fangled people with thier bit boxes, The Atmoses and DTSs, FLACs and DD+s.. They need to realize where this use of acronym soup in audio began.. It was QUAD BABY.. ( to Austin Powers music )....
 
Getting back on topic.. AppleTV quality changes..

I did a vid that shows the crazy cool quality of a A2169. Most of what i discuss is lost in the new one.. I AM SORRY in advance I refer to modding a ATV. This is the vid I got. It is what it is. It shows why the A2169 is a stunning bit of engineering. Look past my discussing of mods..

 
Hahaha... Im a EE... You caught my history right ? Making the best CRT projector ever made ? As reviewed in every mag at the time. Maybe you missed my post in the new user forum ?

Again. this is off topic. This thread is about quality differences between the 2 ATVs. I think its best we agree to disagree and move on.
Uh hun,
For those wishing to understand jitter and it's audibility you may want to do a little semi-heavy reading on the subject. Here's a few outside links on the issue.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...er&c[title_only]=1&c[users]=amirm&o=relevance
 
Uh hun,
For those wishing to understand jitter and it's audibility you may want to do a little semi-heavy reading on the subject. Here's a few outside links on the issue.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...er&c[title_only]=1&c[users]=amirm&o=relevance
Some good science there.. I have explored this subject further into the system then just the HDMI rcvr chip tho. He sure is right about the expense of the gear you need to look at this stuff. I have rented gear that costs $400,000 in 2 boxes. Even then, I wanted better resolution. Its INSANE HDMI works at all.

The unrecoverable losses on HDMI are real and how well you do HDMI matters. But things have progressed since a lot of that was written. Things have actually gotten worse with the higher data rates.

"Now all of this said, it is not clear HDMI cables can influence this picture much. I ran some quick test and could not cause this output to change meaningfully when using a short cable versus a very long HDMI cable. But the possibility exists."

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-potential-for-hdmi-cable-differences.104/
 
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