What Source Was used for the Carlos Kleiber Orchestral Recordings Blu-Ray Audio

[ubertrout]

In 2014, Deutsche Grammophon released its first (and until recently, only) surround blu-ray audio, a box set of Carlos Kleiber's surprisingly sparse recorded output of orchestral recordings on CD, along with a BD-Audio with the entire contents in stereo and surround. The back cover is below.

The Schubert and Brahms surround mixes are probably upmixes, but I was particularly interested in getting this for the Beethoven - this was easy to find as a SACD sourced from a 24/96 transfer, but the DVD-Audio with the mix in original resolution has been completely out of print for over a decade. Accordingly, I was wondering if Deutsche Grammophon used a SACD or the original 24/96 files for the blu-ray audio. Looking at the spectra, it seems pretty clear to me that they used a SACD.

First, here's the first movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony from the DVD-Audio.

Looks about like you'd expect. Meanwhile, this is the spectrum from the BD-Audio.

This is pretty obviously from a SACD source - the high frequency noise above 30 khz and the cutoff at 44 khz, indicating that the SACD was converted to PCM at 88.2 khz.

Meanwhile, the rest of the BD-Audio looks normal - the Schubert selections look similar to the DVD-Audio of Beethoven, while the Brahms shows its age as a early PCM recording.

So what does this all mean? Maybe not that much. The BD-Audio still sound good. But I'm disappointed that DG missed an opportunity to provide the original resolution of the Beethoven, and it means that the DVD-Audio remains the only way to properly get it. Which is a bummer.

 

[Lute]

Thanks for the detailed info! I pretty much figured they just used the same Beethoven source and upmixes for the Brahms and Schubert. Neither the fidelity nor the surround mixes are particularly impressive. Nice to have any recording by Carlos, though. My favorites of his in Hirez are still Beethoven's 4th & 7th on Orfeo.

 

[Lute]

Just curious but, have you ever done any similar comparisons with Karajan's 1977 recording of Beethoven's 9th? The reason I ask is that I remember Joseph Ponessa discussing how the MC mix differed quite a bit from the 2-ch mix. He seemed to think the engineer had access to the master tapes for the MC SACD.

Here's his review on sa-cd.net... http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/92

 

[ubertrout]

Just curious but, have you ever done any similar comparisons with Karajan's 1977 recording of Beethoven's 9th? The reason I ask is that I remember Joseph Ponessa discussing how the MC mix differed quite a bit from the 2-ch mix. He seemed to think the engineer had access to the master tapes for the MC SACD.

I haven't. Would be interesting, but I don't have the SACD ripped. I actually do have the BD-A, but haven't given this a high priority - I wouldn't be surprised if the BD-A is sourced from the SACD as well. But there never was a DVD-Audio of the Karajan Beethoven 9 as I recall.

Mostly frustrating that DG used a subsequent DSD conversion reconverted to PCM instead of using the original PCM transfer. Doesn't seem that complicated...

 

[humprof]

I recall being disappointed with both the surround mix and the overall sound of the Kleiber 5th/7th SACD when I finally laid my hands on it. I didn't realize that there had also been a DVD-A release (which might sound better).

Coincidentally, Gramophone has a feature today "reconsidering" whether Kleiber's 7th deserves its "classic" status:

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/featur...carlos-kleiber-recording-of-beethoven-seventh

 

[ubertrout]

I recall being disappointed with both the surround mix and the overall sound of the Kleiber 5th/7th SACD when I finally laid my hands on it. I didn't realize that there had also been a DVD-A release (which might sound better).

Coincidentally, Gramophone has a feature today "reconsidering" whether Kleiber's 7th deserves its "classic" status:

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/featur...carlos-kleiber-recording-of-beethoven-seventh

The DVD-Audio came first. It's often been for sale at insane prices, but there isn't actually that much demand for it either, and this auction has already been relisted once, at a fairly sane price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BEETHOVEN-...are-SEALED-NEW-DG-Carlos-Kleiber/142793906494

I think it sounds a little better but not night and day different.

 

[humprof]

Well, the 7th definitely sounds better than the 5th. Unlike the 5th, I'd say the 7th was multi-mic'd, and it has more clarity and detail. There's also more than just faint echo in the rears, so on the whole it sounds more "present," less distant than the 5th.

Strange that they used the SACD transfer for the Blu-Ray.

 

[Lute]

I haven't. Would be interesting, but I don't have the SACD ripped. I actually do have the BD-A, but haven't given this a high priority - I wouldn't be surprised if the BD-A is sourced from the SACD as well. But there never was a DVD-Audio of the Karajan Beethoven 9 as I recall.

Mostly frustrating that DG used a subsequent DSD conversion reconverted to PCM instead of using the original PCM transfer. Doesn't seem that complicated...

The whole music industry seems overly complicated. LOL! And DG's recordings haven't always been the best sonically speaking. When they remastered them in the digital age, I wish engineers could have used the masters to open up and improve the listening experience generally. But, maybe that's asking too much. What's done is done.

But boy... If they could some how improve the fidelity of Kleiber's recording of Brahms's 4th...

I bought that Kleiber box set just for the Brahms...in the hope that they found some backup analogue tape of it.

On a side note... I have truly been impressed with the quality of Dutton-Vocalion's Quad transfers.