HiRez Poll Wilson, Casandra - TRAVELING MILES [DVD-A]

[JonUrban]

A new release from BlueNote!

Please post your comments, thoughts and observations.......

 

[cupboy]

Someone on another forum says the channels got switched around on the dvd-audio surround mix, but that the dts track was not affected by the problem. So I would guess this disk is a total zero. I don't have it so can't really vote.

 

[eesau55]

Yes, DTS has got the DTS data and channels OK but the MLP channels are somewhow in wrong order. Stay away from this record!!!!

Esa

 

[mwheelerk]

This is one of my favorite discs yet the DVD-Audio is either horrible or flawed. The right rear channel has absolutely nothing (I've tried two) while there is strong sound from the left. I gave up on the DVD-Audio and listen to the DTS mix.

 

[The Rang]

So I hear the DVD-A surround mix is botched up.

What about the DVD-A two channel? Is it OK?

 

[haikubass]

I'm glad I own this one, misplaced channels or not. The correct(ed) version has exceptionaly prominent right rear channel and very sparseĺy used left rear one, but the mix really works. Unfortunately, I still subconsciously tend to check upon proper functionality of all speakers - I have to distract one point for this. Anyway, the music and mainly Cassandra's vocal sound good enough to guarantee 7 solid points.

 

[LizardKing]

So I'm guessing that you have to swap RF & RS based on this waveform of the first track?

 

[LizardKing]

OK - even more curious.... this is the waveform from the DTS... :yikes I think its wrong too...



It would explain Haikubass' comments about the right rear being loud... I think it should be the center channel...

 

[fredblue]

I've been wanting to get this for years (I'm pretty sure its the only "EMI Signature Series" DVDA I don't have)..

.. but the thought of the futzed up DVDA/AdvRes channels always put me off..

.. and now you've detected even the DTS stream is balls'd up LK, its put me off altogether!

.. well, unless I see it somewhere for a fiver or something!

 

[DKA]

OK - even more curious.... this is the waveform from the DTS... :yikes I think its wrong too...

View attachment 9807

It would explain Haikubass' comments about the right rear being loud... I think it should be the center channel...

Listening to the first track now. Vocal's only in the RF and LF. C really only has some drums in it, making for just some strange channel placement.

RS and LS could be balanced out better but, if this was me trying to "fix" this, maybe I'd blend the C back into the fronts, make a pair out of that, and try to derive some sort of center from that. SPEC would do the job just fine with some tinkering.

Curious as to how the rest sounds. Is what you're showing above a waveform of the entire album?

 

[DKA]

So I'm guessing that you have to swap RF & RS based on this waveform of the first track?

View attachment 9805

Not necessarily. RF and LF make for a nice stereo pair.

There's solid info in both rears. They're just pretty unbalanced. The C is what really comes off very wrong to me.

 

[DKA]

I've spent some MORE time with this album, even using the 6CH source itself to created my own re-imagined version through an adjusted SPEC layout that I like better in some spots, but not in others. At the very least, it's a much more balanced mix which brings out some interesting parts of some tracks in the way I find them lacking in the retial.

Upon moving away from looking at waveforms and listening to individual channels too much, and actually listening to the mix as a whole, I do think some of what's been said about the mix is a bit overstated. I think some songs fall into the trap of having what appears to be more audible information in the SR, while the SL adds some ambience. It's a matter of wanting more from the SL than the SR necessarily being too loud. FR and FL make for some nice quad fronts, while the C really just adds to fill in the soundfield a bit - never like that in mixes. That's not 5.1. It's 4.1 and you didn't know what the hell to do with the center channel.

Even with the imperfections, this isn't a bad mix, and even rises slightly above average to me. I ask that the surround gods reflect my actual vote around a "6," and I now have two hi-rez mixes of the album to enjoy.

 

[Fourplay]

Hey All,

I just recently received this disc and am spinning it now. What an odd mix as encoded! The center is very strong with percussion elements, and the left rear is very quiet.

The elements are discrete, which is a plus for me.

What I have tried is to swap the center and the left rear channels. This makes for a pretty pleasing mix to my ears, but it is hokey to have to do this. The music is beautiful and clear, but based on the necessity for a workaround I give it a 5. For a "fixed" version I might go as strong as an 8 because I like the music and the mix is discrete.

My two bits.

Ken

 

[J. PUPSTER]

First off, the artist's name is spelled wrong for the Poll, it's missing an "s" in Cassandra. Makes it hard to search.

This surround album is one of my favorites; I play it often and never tire of listening. There has been much mentioned of the messed up mix of the DVD-A MLP layer. Yes it appears to me also that it has some major deficiencies on certain channels. However, first and foremost for me is the music itself. This is a musical journey that Cassandra Wilson & others took across various stages of Miles Davis’ career. The music has a very moody, lush and smoky Jazz/Folk/World style that is almost unclassifiable, and different from anything else I’ve heard. That uniqueness of style is part of the appeal for me.

I reviewed this today, playing it from an Oppo UDP-205 player, direct–analog to a Marantz AVR-8500. The first thing I tried was the 96/24 MLP layer that has an audio bit rate of 7-8 MBPS, and verified that the Front Right and Left Rear channels had very light amount of audio coming from them. To get to the 96/24 dts layer, you have to go back to the Top Menu and change it (some discs let you change it on the fly with your remote, not this one.) The dts has an audio bit rate of 1.5 MBPS and all the channels came into play on this setting. Yes, we lose a considerable amount of resolution using the dts; however, listening to it closely, I don’t believe I can tell much if any difference on my system. I believe this is due to well recorded sessions and perhaps the mastering wasn’t a total cock-up. I noticed some differences in the mix between the MLP and dts; so perhaps this points to where the mistake may have come from; but shouldn’t it have been caught in the mastering? The surround album was mixed by: Ray Bardani; and Mastered by Ted Jensen.

The songs were written by a mix of Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Marcus Miller, Cassandra Wilson and a few others, with Cassandra interpreting the music in her own special style. The track listing in the notes has 12 tracks, but there is an extra hidden track called Pfransing. For the majority of the album the center channel is very subdued and sparse, which should appeal to Quadraphonic lovers that don’t care for a center channel. The clarity of the mix is very good however, creating a very convincing “Phantom Center” effect; I’d have to verify occasionally by checking out the center closely.

This has some great guest musicians on it including:
Dave Holland – acoustic bass
Pat Metheny – electric guitar
Angelique Kidjo – vocals
Olu Dara – cornet

I believe the whole album utilizes acoustic bass, which has a very earthy but natural sound. The bass output through my sub is very robust and fairly tight. A couple of highlights for the mix are: track 11 has a Greek Bouzouki which has a wonderful mix crossing between the F/L and R/L. A lot of congas are used, playing primarily in the L/R channel and electric guitar effects that float between channels. Track 5 has a guitar solo that is prominent in the center channel, and track 8 has an acoustic solo in the center channel.

As far as the overall balance between the front and rear channels; I feel you could boost the fronts slightly or lower the rears, and add a little more to the center. I don’t know what the Dynamic Range is, but I feel I can turn it up as loud as I can handle it and not be bothered in any way.

My suggestion if you’d like to try this title (and I encourage it) is to purchase a CD and listen through headphones (or just speakers) and enjoy the music for what it is, without trying to worry about a production mistake that hinders getting to an enjoyable experience. This DVD-A (in good used condition) in recent years has gone from the $20-$30 range, to now into the $40 range. There are usually a few available via the usual places, but it’s getting thinner every year.

Here’s the discogs page:
https://www.discogs.com/Cassandra-Wilson-Traveling-Miles/release/3272621
Ratings:

Packaging: 10%
5%- Form & Function (Ease of access to its contents, appropriate size & secure storage.)
{Typical - Super Jewel Box}

5%- Value (Extra contents considered- value added or excess trinkets.)
{Typical – Good info in pamphlet with musician credits & lyrics for the songs.}

Audio Fidelity: 25% (of 30%)
10%- Perceived Dynamic Range (Sounding loud / bothersome, clarity & quietness.)
{Very Good}

10%- Equalization (Balance across the frequency range appropriate for the music.)
{Very Good}

5% (of 10)- Production qualities (Studio Production / live recording.) & Mastering.
{-5% for the MLP errors}

Surround Mix: 30%
10%- Degree of Discreteness between all channels (Level of ambience overall.)
{Very Good}

10%- Spatial Definition (How each note is projected to a defined point in the room.)
{Very Good}

10%- Instruments, Sound Effects and Vocals (evaluating instrument placement and levels)
{Very Good}

Content: 30%
15%- Does the music make you feel something (heartfelt, excitable, somber, self-reflective?)
{Very Satisfied}

15%- Overall quality of the music (How many songs resonate with you overall?)
{Very Satisfied}

Total 95%= Vote is a solid 9.

 

[4-earredwonder]

First off, the artist's name is spelled wrong for the Poll, it's missing an "s" in Cassandra. Makes it hard to search.

This surround album is one of my favorites; I play it often and never tire of listening. There has been much mentioned of the messed up mix of the DVD-A MLP layer. Yes it appears to me also that it has some major deficiencies on certain channels. However, first and foremost for me is the music itself. This is a musical journey that Cassandra Wilson & others took across various stages of Miles Davis’ career. The music has a very moody, lush and smoky Jazz/Folk/World style that is almost unclassifiable, and different from anything else I’ve heard. That uniqueness of style is part of the appeal for me.

I reviewed this today, playing it from an Oppo UDP-205 player, direct–analog to a Marantz AVR-8500. The first thing I tried was the 96/24 MLP layer that has an audio bit rate of 7-8 MBPS, and verified that the Front Right and Left Rear channels had very light amount of audio coming from them. To get to the 96/24 dts layer, you have to go back to the Top Menu and change it (some discs let you change it on the fly with your remote, not this one.) The dts has an audio bit rate of 1.5 MBPS and all the channels came into play on this setting. Yes, we lose a considerable amount of resolution using the dts; however, listening to it closely, I don’t believe I can tell much if any difference on my system. I believe this is due to well recorded sessions and perhaps the mastering wasn’t a total cock-up. I noticed some differences in the mix between the MLP and dts; so perhaps this points to where the mistake may have come from; but shouldn’t it have been caught in the mastering? The surround album was mixed by: Ray Bardani; and Mastered by Ted Jensen.

The songs were written by a mix of Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Marcus Miller, Cassandra Wilson and a few others, with Cassandra interpreting the music in her own special style. The track listing in the notes has 12 tracks, but there is an extra hidden track called Pfransing. For the majority of the album the center channel is very subdued and sparse, which should appeal to Quadraphonic lovers that don’t care for a center channel. The clarity of the mix is very good however, creating a very convincing “Phantom Center” effect; I’d have to verify occasionally by checking out the center closely.

This has some great guest musicians on it including:
Dave Holland – acoustic bass
Pat Metheny – electric guitar
Angelique Kidjo – vocals
Olu Dara – cornet

I believe the whole album utilizes acoustic bass, which has a very earthy but natural sound. The bass output through my sub is very robust and fairly tight. A couple of highlights for the mix are: track 11 has a Greek Bouzouki which has a wonderful mix crossing between the F/L and R/L. A lot of congas are used, playing primarily in the L/R channel and electric guitar effects that float between channels. Track 5 has a guitar solo that is prominent in the center channel, and track 8 has an acoustic solo in the center channel.

A far as the overall balance between the front and rear channels; I feel you could boost the fronts slightly or lower the rears, and add a little more to the center. I don’t know what the Dynamic Range is, but I feel I can turn it up as loud as I can handle it and not be bothered in any way.

My suggestion if you’d like to try this title (and I encourage it) is to purchase a CD and listen through headphones (or just speakers) and enjoy the music for what it is, without trying to worry about a production mistake that hinders getting to an enjoyable experience. This DVD-A (in good used condition) in recent years has gone from the $20-$30 range, to now into the $40 range. There are usually a few available via the usual places, but it’s getting thinner every year.

Here’s the discogs page:
https://www.discogs.com/Cassandra-Wilson-Traveling-Miles/release/3272621
Ratings:

Packaging: 10%
5%- Form & Function (Ease of access to its contents, appropriate size & secure storage.)
{Typical - Super Jewel Box}

5%- Value (Extra contents considered- value added or excess trinkets.)
{Typical – Good info in pamphlet with musician credits & lyrics for the songs.}

Audio Fidelity: 25% (of 30%)
10%- Perceived Dynamic Range (Sounding loud / bothersome, clarity & quietness.)
{Very Good}

10%- Equalization (Balance across the frequency range appropriate for the music.)
{Very Good}

5% (of 10)- Production qualities (Studio Production / live recording.) & Mastering.
{-5% for the MLP errors}

Surround Mix: 30%
10%- Degree of Discreteness between all channels (Level of ambience overall.)
{Very Good}

10%- Spatial Definition (How each note is projected to a defined point in the room.)
{Very Good}

10%- Instruments, Sound Effects and Vocals (evaluating instrument placement and levels)
{Very Good}

Content: 30%
15%- Does the music make you feel something (heartfelt, excitable, somber, self-reflective?)
{Very Satisfied}

15%- Overall quality of the music (How many songs resonate with you overall?)
{Very Satisfied}

Total 95%= Vote is a solid 9.

The Pupster is MUCH MORE FORGIVING than me. Yes, it's a splendid album but I did purchase it mainly for the MLP DVD~A 5.1 content ..... which DTS Entertainment [unceremoniously] SCREWED UP with the missing FRONT Channel. If one is content with the MLP Hi Res Stereo or the LOSSY DTS 5.1 layer, you will be well satisfied with the content, remix and the fidelity.

My gripe was that Capitol/Blue Note released VERY few DVD~Audio discs and when DTS Entertainment announced they would be reissuing a handful of them in MLP DVD~A, I was thrilled.

And the very fact that DTS Entertainment failed to issue a replacement [well, it WAS at the end of DTS' foray into MLP DVD~A and even DTS CDs], I was TOTALLY BUMMED OUT!

For reasons stated, I assign Traveling Miles a 7 ......... generous, I believe for the 'unaffected' MLP Stereo and DTS 5.1 content.

For TRUE lovers of Ms. Wilson, I VERY HIGHLY RECOMMEND New Moon Daughter, which, IMO, for a RBCD sounds TOTALLY AWESOME

 

[fredblue]

ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another thrilling instalment of "Second Guessing The Engineer"!

well i've been dicking around with the stems of this one and i think i'm ready to embark upon at least starting a conversation about what i suspect may have happened (its not entirely straight forward so pull up a comfy chair if you're interested and please try it for yourself and let me know what you think!)

so, shifting channels hither and thither; adjusting levels up and down and seeing exactly what was going on in each channel, i got a feel for what i thought the engineer's approach may have been with this mix and this strikes me as what they were going for;

- Cassandra Wilson and the main bulk of the music (rhythm section) up in FL/FR.

- some kind of solo in the Centre (say, a trumpet, as in the opening track).

accents (e.g. percussion) plus ambience/reverb in the Rears.

rather i should say that is the 5.1 presentation you get after you do the following;

1.) Reassign Right Rear (Ch.6) to Front Right (Ch.2).
2.) Lower Centre (Ch.3) -3dB.
3.) Reassign Front Right (Ch.2) to Centre (Ch.3).
4.) Reassign Centre (Ch.3) to Right Rear (Ch.6)
5.) Boost Left Rear (Ch.5) +10db.
6.) Boost newly assigned Centre (now Ch.3, formerly Ch.2) +10dB.
7.) Lower Front Left (Ch.1; which remains in same channel throughout reassignment process) and newly created Front Right (now Ch.2, used to be in Ch.6) by -3dB.
8.) Lower LFE -10dB.

more to follow intrepid Quaddies, including piccies! watch this space!

 

[fredblue]

here's a few pics to show what happens when you do all that,

from top to bottom;
pic 1 : mix as is on MLP stream 5.1,
pic 2 : shows where each channel ends up
(1, 4 & 5 remain in same channels, 2 moves to 3, 3 moves to 6 and 6 moves to 2)
pic 3 : mix after tinkering.

pic 1:



pic 2:



pic 3:



EDIT: Please ignore this, i have since worked out Channel 5 here is actually the Centre and should be in Channel 3! Phew! all explained in later posts in this thread!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

here's a few pics to show what happens when you do all that,

from top to bottom;
pic 1 : mix as is on MLP stream 5.1,
pic 2 : shows where each channel ends up
(1, 4 & 5 remain in same channels, 2 moves to 3, 3 moves to 6 and 6 moves to 2)
pic 3 : mix after tinkering.

pic 1:

View attachment 41327

pic 2:

View attachment 41328

pic 3:

View attachment 41329

Well the fact you're spending this kind of time and effort rejigging the puzzle Freddie, warms my heart; I guess it just comes down to how it sounds to you afterwards. As you know, it's mainly the content that endears me to this one.

 

[GOS]

I have no clue who Casandra is......

 

[fredblue]

Well the fact you're spending this kind of time and effort rejigging the puzzle Freddie, warms my heart; I guess it just comes down to how it sounds to you afterwards. As you know, it's mainly the content that endears me to this one.

well i'm still fiddle-diddling as we speak but i think i've hit the jackpot as to what's going on now.

i wish i could say the mix post-tinkering is as interesting as it is straight off the disc but it isn't, its still nice though and sounds much better balanced with the overloud FL, RR & LFE all dialled back and the other channels level adjusted.

tbh i smelt a rat (or rather spotted one!) as soon as i saw a rear channel with so little going on in it! the penny dropped, there's no lead vocal reberb in there (ch.4 is all low bass content, that's definitely the LFE present and correct) so Channel 5 must be the Centre!!

then the channels with lead vocal reverb in them (2 & 3) revealed themselves as Rears (i'm going on Ch.2 as Left Rear and Ch.3 Right Rear)...

..and the originally overloud Rear Right (creating a weird kind of diagonal Centre in the middle of the room) not only looks like a Front/Main channel, it is!

so to me (as was suggested on here years ago) it was indeed a bit of a screw up.. not the mix itself but of channel assignment on the disc and then i'm guessing somebody (mastering engineer or authoring house maybe?) thought "gosh this doesn't sound right! lets boost the Fronts and LFE and no-one will notice!"

there is an upside to all this, in that i'm really listening intently to this for possibly the first time ever - and greatly enjoying it, its a lovely album i never appreciated before and dismissed with a QQ "7" because the mix didn't grab me.. now i know why!