Recordings listed in the Quad Discography that ARE NOT QUAD

I am of the opinion that those A&M Horizon discs are quad encoded.

In fact there is a thread or definitive post from "Larry Clifton" somewhere's on QQ that not only mentions these titles as declared "ENCODED " but supplies a handful of additional QS titles .

These are all stealth-no quad indicated titles that were supplied to Larry by ED MICHEL sometime after his final edition of Quad Incorporated Supplements . And titles include 2 -3 additional quad encodes from John Coltrane on Impulse Records , another Impulse title/s, Alice Coltrane on Warner Bros., and I think a couple of additional A&M/HORIZON discs.


I trust Larry's judgement and "vetting" process btw. He does provide his quad information with required caution and have no reason to believe he would ever misinform .


As to quad recordngs that are lacking in Discrete performance , two that come to mind are the live Q8'S of Barbra Streisand at the Forum and B.B. King -Live In London .









-fizzy (Derek)

Post #51 , fwiw.



https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?1799-QS-albums/page3

fizzywiggs41 said:

I am of the opinion that those A&M Horizon discs are quad encoded.
In fact there is a thread or definitive post from "Larry Clifton" somewhere's on QQ that not only mentions these titles as declared "ENCODED " but supplies a handful of additional QS titles .
These are all stealth-no quad indicated titles that were supplied to Larry by ED MICHEL sometime after his final edition of Quad Incorporated Supplements . And titles include 2 -3 additional quad encodes from John Coltrane on Impulse Records , another Impulse title/s, Alice Coltrane on Warner Bros., and I think a couple of additional A&M/HORIZON discs.
I trust Larry's judgement and "vetting" process btw. He does provide his quad information with required caution and have no reason to believe he would ever misinform .
As to quad recordngs that are lacking in Discrete performance , two that come to mind are the live Q8'S of Barbra Streisand at the Forum and B.B. King -Live In London .
-fizzy (Derek)

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Thanks for the comments. I never would discount Larry's judgement. The titles were reported in the Quad Incorporated supplement as I recall and the only other published info found at the time were mentions of using a title in question as a demonstration disc. The titles were moved in the previous version updated three years ago so I do not recall the threads that led to the conclusion but it was probably me who started the question about those titles because I would be asked the question about them all the time as I uploaded the info to my site.
I am not familiar with the thread and will seek it out. If a correction is to be done that can happen easily. Perhaps a QQ pole for voting instead of my previous yeahs or neahs method when no real info had surfaced.

fizzywiggs41 said:

Post #51 , fwiw.
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?1799-QS-albums/page3

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Damn, where was that info three years ago!
Thanks fizzy and steelydave for taking the time to review the update and ask the question. Looks like a change is do.
I appreciate the help

fizzywiggs41 said:

Post #51 , fwiw.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?1799-QS-albums/page3

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Wow. That thread, although bursting with information, goes back to the EZBoard version of QQ, as those early posts with the red lettered 'guest' users, and weird quote scripts, were imported from that EZBoard to vBulletin in 2003 when I changed the forum over to this web based host. It seems so long ago, yet was it? @:

Mark Anderson said:

Damn, where was that info three years ago!
Thanks fizzy and steelydave for taking the time to review the update and ask the question. Looks like a change is do.
I appreciate the help

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I've been quad sleuthing for so many years , that this type of detection becomes natural , almost an art in itself. And it helps to have historically relevant information at hand.

QQ is bursting at the seems with Quad matrix and discrete reports. And even this late in the quad past we receive MORE and MORE quad info we did not have back then-uterrly amazing .

Thanks Jon and all the vetting mods for keeping it so very interesting .

Yes, thanks, it has spurred a couple of more purchases in the past few days. Now, if only I can find that QS Ommadawn for less than $50.....

Mark Anderson said:

Damn, where was that info three years ago!
Thanks fizzy and steelydave for taking the time to review the update and ask the question. Looks like a change is do.
I appreciate the help

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OK, I will move the titles from the NOT QUAD to the popular discography and also add the additional titles that Ed Michel had listed on his web site as being mixed in quad. Unfortunately the original site does not exist anymore but found a copy on the way back machine site at https://web.archive.org/web/20030207172453/http://www.edmicheljazzproducer.com:80/RECORDINGS.htm

A couple corrections I noticed
"Dave Brubeck Quartet/25th Anniversary Reunion, Horizon SP-715", the catalog number is actually SP-714
"Ornette Coleman/Dancing in Your Head, Horizon SP-721", the catalog number is actually SP-722
"Sonny Fortune/Waves Of Dreams, Horizon SP-712", the catalog number is actually SP-711
"The list includes the Alice Coltrane/Infinity LP on Warner Brothers" The title should be Eternity

Also note that the Horizon catalog numbers are not the same as Larry provided in his post.

The web site also list "Dave Brubeck QUARTET "LIVE" - Artists House (unissued LP) quadraphonic", "DAVE LIEBMAN KEEPER OF THE PASS* - Horizon (unissued compilation of tracks) quadraphonic & HARVEST* - Horizon (unissued compilation of tracks) quadraphonic" which can be added to the not released discography

Also listed is "ALICE COLTRANE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS - Impulse AS-9210 (LP) quadraphonic" that is not in the discography

Also note that "JIM HALL -Live. Horizon SP-705 (QS)" is not listed as quadraphonic, but "NO ENERGY CRISIS*- Impulse AS-9267/2 (new 2-LP compilation of previously issued tracks)" is also not listed as quad and the record labels indicate that it is so he could have just missed those.

Their are also a lot of Sun Ra recordings listed as "(previously issued album - prepared for release, but unissued by Impulse) quadraphonic"

On the rear of the cover on my double LP of Tommy, Original Soundtrack Recording, clearly marked as stereo, there is a small para, part of which says, ‘...also available on Musicassette no. 3500 117 and Eight track no. 3862 004’. Maybe this 8 track is Quad but it is not stated explicitly.

Incidentally, just for options to play back stereo, ambisonic superstereo mode is often very effective.

stevendive said:

On the rear of the cover on my double LP of Tommy, Original Soundtrack Recording, clearly marked as stereo, there is a small para, part of which says, ‘...also available on Musicassette no. 3500 117 and Eight track no. 3862 004’. Maybe this 8 track is Quad but it is not stated explicitly.
Incidentally, just for options to play back stereo, ambisonic superstereo mode is often very effective.

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Although I do not recall listening to the 8-track version I would think that a separate matrix encoded mix was not made for one format only and we do not know of any 4.0 discrete Q8 release of this.

The Super Stereo mode on an Ambisonic decoder was my go to for years for enhancing stereo to more speakers and I would certainly recommend adding a decoder to one's arsenal for playback when other decoders do not do the job of enhancing stereo to surround. A used Meridian of any vintage would be my 1st choice.

Mark Anderson said:

Although I do not recall listening to the 8-track version I would think that a separate matrix encoded mix was not made for one format only and we do not know of any 4.0 discrete Q8 release of this.

The Super Stereo mode on an Ambisonic decoder was my go to for years for enhancing stereo to more speakers and I would certainly recommend adding a decoder to one's arsenal for playback when other decoders do not do the job of enhancing stereo to surround. A used Meridian of any vintage would be my 1st choice.

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The Meridians are very good. I've had a 565 since 1995 and my current G61RSL since 2012. The G61, G68 and the current G65 and 861V8 (mouth going dry at the price) also all take horizontal B-Format inputs (WXY), although finding B-format recordings is a bit of a mission. Back in around 1984, I started with a Minim AD10, which also had B-Format inputs. Then one has to sort out how to play back 3 (or 4 WXYZ) channel files. You would usually convert the AMB file to WAV or FLAC and play back using software such as VLC through a multichannel card or outboard, preferably asynchronous, multichannel DAC.

In terms of a(n eclectic) discography with downloads of B-Format:

www.ambisonia.com

Nimbus Records has a large back catalogue of UHJ ambisonic recordings. Codes up to NI 2xxx series are all UHJ encoded. Both the NI 5xxx & NI 7xxx series seem to be at least mainly UHJ but possibly not all are and it's not obvious which are UHJ from the descriptions on Nimbus's pages. I had assumed the NI 5xxx & Ni 7xxx were all UHJ and all those I have received on web order have been UHJ, but a guy from Nimbus advised that only the NI 2xxx series were all UHJ. I should follow up his advice and ask again.

www.wyastone.co.uk/all-labels/nimbus.html

Discogs is worth a search, too.

Nimbus Records has a large back catalogue of UHJ ambisonic recordings. Codes up to NI 2xxx series are all UHJ encoded. Both the NI 5xxx & NI 7xxx series seem to be at least mainly UHJ but possibly not all are and it's not obvious which are UHJ from the descriptions on Nimbus's pages. I had assumed the NI 5xxx & Ni 7xxx were all UHJ and all those I have received on web order have been UHJ said:

www.wyastone.co.uk/all-labels/nimbus.html[/url]

Discogs is worth a search, too.

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interesting, as i contacted Nimbus last year querying the lack of any mention of UHJ on recent releases and was told that almost all of their releases, apart from those from external sources, were still recorded using the Ambisonic microphone and released in UHJ

i assume the lack of any mention of UHJ would be because there is no availability of decoding hardware commercially, expect for the second hand market. It needs equipment to have the decoder built into mass production equipment for any chance of UHJ/ambisonics to stand any chance.

i wonder who knows what at Nimbus?

willothewisp said:

interesting, as i contacted Nimbus last year querying the lack of any mention of UHJ on recent releases and was told that almost all of their releases, apart from those from external sources, were still recorded using the Ambisonic microphone and released in UHJ

i assume the lack of any mention of UHJ would be because there is no availability of decoding hardware commercially, expect for the second hand market. It needs equipment to have the decoder built into mass production equipment for any chance of UHJ/ambisonics to stand any chance.

i wonder who knows what at Nimbus?

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Seems a little confusing when comparing our notes re new releases, but as I have found, Nimbus releases post series NI 2xxx are UHJ. I have 5000 & 7000 series CDs from them in UHJ.

Brand new decoders are still available from Meridian Audio - at a price. See my post, above. There are always a few on fleabay, such as the 565 or 568.2 at good prices.

too expensive for me, and most other people. i'm sure given todays technology a high quality UHJ decoder could be produced for a fraction of the cost of the Meridan.

but i guess that is just a pipe dream

willothewisp said:

too expensive for me, and most other people. i'm sure given todays technology a high quality UHJ decoder could be produced for a fraction of the cost of the Meridan.

but i guess that is just a pipe dream

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True that Meridian is expensive and I would not suggest an ambi decoder should be. Minim used to make a naked board for DIY enthusiasts, the AD8, which was fairly inexpensive.

I had a brief email chat with someone from the miniDSP site who said they may consider adding ambisonic decoder to their line. Perhaps anyone with s similar interest would also contact them.

Ps. Someone good at coding for DSPs might consider a home brew project. But first order B-Format, UHJ and superstereo can be implemented in analogue, too. Lots of resistor networks and careful component tolerant matching needed.

steelydave said:

I know the Horizon discs are listed as 'not-quad', but I'm just wondering what the source of that information is? Right next to that thing about Pye QS quad in the March 13/76 issue of Billboard (that I just posted in another thread) was a regular column that Billboard had spotlighting the best of quad demo tracks, and as you can see it singles out a track from Dave Liebman's 'Sweet Hands' (Horizon SP-702).

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Apologies for the necropost. I just picked up a copy of "Sweet Hands" and am listening to it through the Surround Master as we speak. I couldn't tell you if it's truly QS encoded or if this is just another case of the SM doing the impossible with a stereo source, but it is decoding exceptionally well. For example. there is a long solo section in "Within You Without You" with two acoustic basses playing simultaneously. One of them is very discretely placed in the front left speaker, while the other is very discretely in the rear right. At other points in the song, percussion and sitar is placed squarely in the rears as well. It certainly sounds purposeful, although with the Surround Master I'm often not quite sure if it's truly a quad source or not.

The album jacket alludes to quad. Notice the references to "front and back" as well as "depth and movement."

I also have Sonny Fortune's "Awakening" in my collection, which is another one of the quad-questionable recordings on the Horizon label. It also has a stereo mix diagram, but no reference to front/back placement.



As far as how it sounds through the Surround Master: side 1 doesn't decode in a particularly interesting way at all. Side 2, especially the title track, decodes beautifully.

Below is a link to the updated NOT QUAD page
http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/notquad.htm

Mark Anderson said:

Is Gloria Gaynor - Experience QUAD?


Tom Moulton was kind enough to respond to my question about Experience being mixed in quad, below is our conversation:


MARK: I am wondering if the GLORIA GAYNOR -Experience album MGM M3G-4997 you mixed is quad using the Sansui QS matrix. I ask this in reference to an article in Billboard

"Billboard (Nov 15, 1975) reported on the Audio Engineering Society Convention, the article states "Also being demonstrated was another of the QS "quiet quads" the disco sound of Gloria Gaynor's "Experience," mixed at Media Sound studios here for MGM, with the "Do lt Yourself' cut showing particularly vivid separation" This appears to be an unmarked quad recording"

I am curious why the album would not be identified at the time as quad for additional marketing appeal.

TOM: Because we asked Polydor if we could do it in Quad and they said NO!
Not really understanding all the pros & cons of Quad we did it anyway and didn't tell the label. when we started hearing the album on the radio if you were listening on a clock radio or a mono radio. When you play a quad record in mono the left and right cancel each other out. So you would hear Gloria basically singing with just a rhythm track and no strings & Horns.So what's left in the middle is what you hear. So we went back in the Studio and I said instead of remixing why don't we just decode it and bounce it down to stereo. When you see the RE in the wax you know that is the stereo album. Ciao, Tom

Chat Conversation End


Interesting to hear that that first addition LP's without RE etched in the wax are quad and mixed directly from multi track to matrix 2 track.

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@J. PUPSTER pupster fyi .

This is the back and forth conversation with Tom Moulton and Mark Anderson on the QS mix of Gloria Gaynor .
It's quite the revelation. Especially considering MGM Records didn't want Tom Moulton the mix engineer to encode the album with any matrix .

One has to wonder how many other MIX ENGINEERS did the same thing given the opportunity when various big and small Recording Studios were equipped with Encoders for Quad . Both Sony SQ and Sansui QS Encoders , in quite a few Studios in the 70's . Hell maybe even EV-4 Encoders as well.