Atmos vs 5.1

[gvl_guy]

I'm curious about something. I'm not an Atmos guy. And I'm unlikely to actually change around my system to get it. But, there are a lot of Atmos recordings now that, in theory, I can play through my 5.1. Many are only available in Atmos.

One of my recent purchases that had both a 5.1 and Atmos mix (I forget which one. Possibly Hootie and the Blowfish) automatically defaulted to Atmos on my OPPO. It sounded "fine" on my system. But when I finally decided to look at the menu, I realized it was the "wrong" version I was playing. When I flipped it to 5.1 I was stunned on the difference. Fuller, brighter and more surround sound coming from my system.

Now, there are some Atmos releases that don't offer that option. They are just Atmos.

When they mix something that is only in Atmos, do we know if someone is actually checking to see the compatibility with 5.1? Is it like back in the days of quad matrix, that someone checked compatibility with stereo?

Just curious

 

[jimfisheye]

You can play a 12 channel recording folded down to mono if you have to. And you'll be hearing the gist of the mix overall. Musically and artistically. The Atmos system actually takes a step forward and builds some of the down-mixing into the system. It honestly works just the same as your computer's OS down-mixing ability. (ie. Just fine!) The new advance is up-mixing works better for a full theater array with all the extra speaker positions you never see otherwise. (Think vector drawing.)

Is down-mixing compromised? Of course!
Might be akin to lousy seats at a concert. But you're still there, right?

It's another 4 speakers to add and yes, hang from the ceiling. 6 if you had 5.1 to start from. There's the 'copy protection gone wild' element currently with using the decoder to sell hardware and making it difficult to get your hands on otherwise. That is what it is.

Don't read any mystery into this! It's just a few more channels and we have more speakers to joystick sounds around behind the mixing board. That's it. No reinventing the wheel. You can just add to your system. Deal with the software dance as best you can with that. If you were lured into more speakers in the past to hear new surround sound mixes in full... you can do the same again here.

Available mixes range from amazing to awful like always.

 

[paligap]

As someone who has made the leap to Atmos, I'm not aware of what percentage of recent releases have only an Atmos mix and no 5.1 mix. I know I have read some posts on this forum that claim that, on some releases that have both mixes, some people who do not have an Atmos system thought the Atmos mix actually sounded better than the 5.1 mix. Of course, as in your case, that is not always so.

One good thing about having an Atmos system is that, if a release contains both mixes, you can hear both as they were intended to be heard. Another good thing is that if a release contains only an Atmos mix, you don't have to "settle" for listening to it in 5.1.

 

[gvl_guy]

You can play a 12 channel recording folded down to mono if you have to. And you'll be hearing the gist of the mix overall. Musically and artistically. The Atmos system actually takes a step forward and builds some of the down-mixing into the system. It honestly works just the same as your computer's OS down-mixing ability. (ie. Just fine!) The new advance is up-mixing works better for a full theater array with all the extra speaker positions you never see otherwise. (Think vector drawing.)

Is down-mixing compromised? Of course!
Might be akin to lousy seats at a concert. But you're still there, right?

It's another 4 speakers to add and yes, hang from the ceiling. 6 if you had 5.1 to start from. There's the 'copy protection gone wild' element currently with using the decoder to sell hardware and making it difficult to get your hands on otherwise. That is what it is.

Don't read any mystery into this! It's just a few more channels and we have more speakers to joystick sounds around behind the mixing board. That's it. No reinventing the wheel. You can just add to your system. Deal with the software dance as best you can with that. If you were lured into more speakers in the past to hear new surround sound mixes in full... you can do the same again here.

Available mixes range from amazing to awful like always.

Well, I should have specified. I'm very old school. I have a vintage system with an added center channel and don't use any software stuff. I put a disc in and play it. I admit, technology passed me by and stayed out. I'm okay with that. I just wondered whether it's worth it for me to buy the Atmos only discs when they come out, or just pass them by. After hearing that fold down that sounded a bit drab, I didn't know what to think.

 

[jimfisheye]

Well, I should have specified. I'm very old school.

I'm old school too. Just with using a computer as a tape deck. They make great recording and storage devices and you can just upgrade software when someone makes something new. The storage is unlimited and you can clone your stuff 1:1. For a good 30 years now and never looked back!
Yes, I also have a small studio and I record, mix, and master. But I'm still a consumer!

I have an AR9 based 7.1.4 system. I found more of my same speakers on Ebay when I went from 5.1 to 7.1.4. Still using my Apogee DACs. (All 8! Last 4 channels are MOTU.)

The software dance is the hard part right now and it's by design. If you already have very nice gear, it puts you into the gap where replacing a whole system would be absurd. Downgrading and making Atmos a novelty would be even more absurd. Dolby is being quite stubborn trying to lead you to buying a new AVR to get at the decoder. Choose your adventure there.

You need the Dolby reference player app to play lossless Atmos on the computer with any connected capable sound system. Lossless only and no streaming.
The Apple Music app can be used to stream lossy Atmos (and only lossy) and ONLY if you ALSO have an approved device connected (eg. Apple TV).

Or you get an AV receiver with the decoder built in and that can do both lossless and lossy. There's a hitch with Apple where it shuts you down even with that for the lossy streaming if you don't also have one of their approved devices connected. Almost feels like the extension on surround channels was secondary, doesn't it?

 

[DrKlahn]

One thing to keep in mind is Atmos is mastered at a lower level than 5.1. I typically need to boost an Atmos track anywhere from 3-5dB. So, if you aren't level matching that could account for some of the differences you're hearing.

Like others have said, I would probably compare both. If I only had 5.1, I'd probably play the 5.1 option simply because I know that it was engineered to match my setup. If you had a 7.1 setup then you would likely want to concentrate more on comparing them.

 

[gvl_guy]

One thing to keep in mind is Atmos is mastered at a lower level than 5.1. I typically need to boost an Atmos track anywhere from 3-5dB. So, if you aren't level matching that could account for some of the differences you're hearing.

Like others have said, I would probably compare both. If I only had 5.1, I'd probably play the 5.1 option simply because I know that it was engineered to match my setup. If you had a 7.1 setup then you would likely want to concentrate more on comparing them.

Ah! Yes, it definitely was lower in volume. I had to crank the Atmos higher for sure

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

As someone who has made the leap to Atmos, I'm not aware of what percentage of recent releases have only an Atmos mix and no 5.1 mix....

Hmmm...

For those disc's that only offer an lossless Atmos track, there will of course also be a lossy 5.1 Dolby Digital 'core' (or whatever people prefer to call it), which can be tapped into if you've hooked up an SPDIF optical/coaxial connection.

 

[jimfisheye]

The built in limiter in the Atmos renderer code that down mixes on the fly has a set threshold. Go too loud and the downmixes get stomped! Some people still like that and do just that. However, most Atmos mixes are being turned in in the -16 to -14 LUFS range. FINALLY!! (Yelling that at -8 LUFS )

 

[stoopid]

I brought this up in another thread recently (the Prince purple rain topic). Atmos downmixing to 5.1 is hit/miss, and the results partly depend on the settings we have enabled, disabled, and available in our equipment. As I said in the other topic, it seems like the industry is trying to force everything in the direction of atmos but many more people have 5.1 systems, if not just a soundbar, and very few have atmos. With the economy in a dip for most everyone, I doubt we'll be seeing people clearing the shelves of atmos kit anytime soon. Basic market finance fundamentals would dictate the push to go atmos will fail, unless they give new receivers and speakers away (and for some send out a tech to run the wires cleanly). It's been a near impossible hurtle just to get people to find room for 5 speakers/mount 5 speakers. Upping the entry fee in money, space, and time seems like a hard stop.

 

[key_wiz]

I brought this up in another thread recently (the Prince purple rain topic). Atmos downmixing to 5.1 is hit/miss, and the results partly depend on the settings we have enabled, disabled, and available in our equipment. As I said in the other topic, it seems like the industry is trying to force everything in the direction of atmos but many more people have 5.1 systems, if not just a soundbar, and very few have atmos. With the economy in a dip for most everyone, I doubt we'll be seeing people clearing the shelves of atmos kit anytime soon. Basic market finance fundamentals would dictate the push to go atmos will fail, unless they give new receivers and speakers away (and for some send out a tech to run the wires cleanly).

My understanding is the Atmos mixes are primarily for playing on spatial headsets/earbuds and soundbars. The "push for Atmos" isn't for those who are setting up big 7.1.4 home systems. Such folks are the afterthought. The success of the format isn't going to be dependent upon those with new receivers and bunches of speakers.

I don't know if more traditional 5.1 mixes translate the same way to earbuds. I suspect they don't.

 

[stoopid]

I don't know if more traditional 5.1 mixes translate the same way to earbuds. I suspect they don't.

As an aside, I'm not sure why they wouldn't. If the atmos experience on headset/earbuds is immersive (3D audio), then certainly it could be done with a couple fewer channels as a 'surround' mix. I know there were bulky and mostly discontinued surround headsets at one point in time.

But what I'm thinking is more likely is the standard (true hd?) used to create the atmos mixes is the primary driver, and that would at least hold out hope for the format in the long run. It's using the atmos channels with a digital algorithm to trick the listener. It's neat stuff. Time will tell.

 

[key_wiz]

As an aside, I'm not sure why they wouldn't. If the atmos experience on headset/earbuds is immersive (3D audio), then certainly it could be done with a couple fewer channels as a 'surround' mix. I know there were bulky and mostly discontinued surround headsets at one point in time.

But what I'm thinking is more likely is the standard (true hd?) used to create the atmos mixes is the primary driver, and that would at least hold out hope for the format in the long run. It's using the atmos channels with a digital algorithm to trick the listener. It's neat stuff. Time will tell.

I'm not an Atmos expert, but the idea is that the mixes create a sense of certain "objects" being located in certain spaces which is something the earbuds and soundbars can replicate to a certain degree. I don't think that sort of technology is present in the 5.1 mixes which are much more simple and much more about just putting the guitar in the left rear or whatever.

My hope is that before we get to the point where they realize that nobody really cares about Atmos, that it will have become such the industry standard for how to mix albums that the format will continue regardless. (And that most all 'legacy' albums will have already been remixed into Atmos.) That it will just be the default mixing standard the way stereo became and that all TV sets, soundbars, 'smart speakers' etc will be Atmos enabled.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I'm curious about something. I'm not an Atmos guy. And I'm unlikely to actually change around my system to get it. But, there are a lot of Atmos recordings now that, in theory, I can play through my 5.1. Many are only available in Atmos.

One of my recent purchases that had both a 5.1 and Atmos mix (I forget which one. Possibly Hootie and the Blowfish) automatically defaulted to Atmos on my OPPO. It sounded "fine" on my system. But when I finally decided to look at the menu, I realized it was the "wrong" version I was playing. When I flipped it to 5.1 I was stunned on the difference. Fuller, brighter and more surround sound coming from my system.

Now, there are some Atmos releases that don't offer that option. They are just Atmos.

When they mix something that is only in Atmos, do we know if someone is actually checking to see the compatibility with 5.1? Is it like back in the days of quad matrix, that someone checked compatibility with stereo?

Just curious

I assume your Oppo is the only device you have available to perform a digital mixdown. If not, what else is available?

I have the Hooty 5.1 DVDA. I didn't buy the Atmos release. These are for sure different mixes you are referring to, not a fold down. Did you read any reviews in the poll on the Hooty Atmos. I think some were negative. Don't put too much emphasis on this one release.

I run 5.1.4. So I have your rig with heights. My Atmos processor performs the mixdown from the 7.1 floors. Prior to adding the heights and the processor, I ran Atmos folded to 5.1 for some time. I was quite happy with the results. After adding the height capability, some recordings were indeed more impressive, some were meh. In my collection, there are only a scant few Atmos discs I purchased that I already had 5.1 versions of, that I would say were a significant upgrade. The real treasure is the stuff that is only available as Atmos.

I have wondered if different devices handle the 7.1 to 5.1 mixdown differently. Does my Oppo disc player handle a mixdown the same way my processor does? Since I generally don't play physical discs anymore (I rip them), it's not a biggie for me. But your experience and questions sound similar to other members difficulties when attempting to use a disc player for mixdown of 7.1 to 5.1 or even to Quad.

I know for instance that a mixdown from 5.0 to 4.0 requires that the center channel be split and mixed into the L/R fronts with its level reduced by 3dB. This is to compensate for being reproduced by 2 speakers instead of 1. Does a mixdown of 7.1 to 5.1 require any signal adjustment? I don't believe so but I'd like to hear others opinions.

I'll end by saying that I've played plenty of Atmos down mixed to 5.1 with great results.

 

[DrKlahn]

My understanding is the Atmos mixes are primarily for playing on spatial headsets/earbuds and soundbars. The "push for Atmos" isn't for those who are setting up big 7.1.4 home systems. Such folks are the afterthought. The success of the format isn't going to be dependent upon those with new receivers and bunches of speakers.

I don't know if more traditional 5.1 mixes translate the same way to earbuds. I suspect they don't.

While the amount of proper Atmos headphones is going to dwarf the amount of rooms with an Atmos setup, I don't feel like those of us with a room that can support it are an afterthought. In the various interviews I see online with engineers they seem to have a speaker setup for testing and mixing. Steven Wilson for example has said that he will mix stereo on headphones, but uses a speaker setup for Atmos mixing.

Cost and setup are definitely factors for doing an actual Atmos setup. But for the majority of 5.1 or 7.1 setups the upgrade cost isn't what I would consider insurmountable. Atmos doesn't need a crazy speaker investment and most AVRs or Preamps from the last decade or so can support it. Coming in with nothing, I would also say that unless you have constraints you just can't work around you would want to build an Atmos setup.

 

[Sal1950]

My understanding is the Atmos mixes are primarily for playing on spatial headsets/earbuds and soundbars. The "push for Atmos" isn't for those who are setting up big 7.1.4 home systems. Such folks are the afterthought. The success of the format isn't going to be dependent upon those with new receivers and bunches of speakers.

As to the marketing that's very true as they outnumber us by a huge margin.
But personally we're the big winners, those of us willing to invest the time, money and effort into assembling a good Atmos system are well rewarded.
I first sold my Marantz AV7701 and bought the AV7703 mainly to move into Atmos and also to get separate Audyssey calibration for my dual subwoofers. For me Atmos has proven to be a very valuable upgrade from straight Quad or 5.1 in the additional dimensionality it brings to the surround plate.

My hope is that before we get to the point where they realize that nobody really cares about Atmos, that it will have become such the industry standard for how to mix albums that the format will continue regardless.

I don't think that will happen. Atmos has been the format standard for movies and video now for quite some time. Yes we surround music enthusiasts are small numbers but add into those totals the still growing numbers of home theater owners and you have a fairly substantial group. The big COVID years really exploded that market.

 

[key_wiz]

As to the marketing that's very true as they outnumber us by a huge margin.
But personally we're the big winners, those of us willing to invest the time, money and effort into assembling a good Atmos system are well rewarded.
I first sold my Marantz AV7701 and bought the AV7703 mainly to move into Atmos and also to get separate Audyssey calibration for my dual subwoofers. For me Atmos has proven to be a very valuable upgrade from straight Quad or 5.1 in the additional dimensionality it brings to the surround plate.

I don't think that will happen. Atmos has been the format standard for movies and video now for quite some time. Yes we surround music enthusiasts are small numbers but add into those totals the still growing numbers of home theater owners and you have a fairly substantial group. The big COVID years really exploded that market.

The surround music enthusiasts and home theater owners are not the market though.

In a recent interview with Steven Wilson posted on another thread recently, he stated that 96 of the top 100 albums from last year were all mixed into Atmos. Us older folks with the money and desire for the big systems are not the market for those titles.

We benefit from the fact that they will sound even better on our systems, but we really aren't the reason the vast majority of these mixes are being funded and created.

 

[jimfisheye]

Yeah, there will be examples both ways of some down mixes ending up better than the intentional mix and some being screwed up for it. Sometimes happy accidents happen with that. People have noted surround mixes down mixed to stereo bettering the intentional stereo mix before.

This honestly leads to better mixes across the board. It can anyway. You compare your 7.1.4 to your 5.1 to your 2.0 and notice things and take the opportunity to dial them all up another notch!

You need more speakers if you want to hear the big new mix though. And then the decoder software. The software dance stinks to high hell right now. Limiting access to the decoder and using that to leverage hardware sales is the main game. 7.1.4 mixes are here to stay though! No matter what else... that happened!

 

[Sal1950]

The surround music enthusiasts and home theater owners are not the market though.

In a recent interview with Steven Wilson posted on another thread recently, he stated that 96 of the top 100 albums from last year were all mixed into Atmos. Us older folks with the money and desire for the big systems are not the market for those titles.

We benefit from the fact that they will sound even better on our systems, but we really aren't the reason the vast majority of these mixes are being funded and created.

Isn't that what I just said?

 

[DrKlahn]

The surround music enthusiasts and home theater owners are not the market though.

In a recent interview with Steven Wilson posted on another thread recently, he stated that 96 of the top 100 albums from last year were all mixed into Atmos. Us older folks with the money and desire for the big systems are not the market for those titles.

We benefit from the fact that they will sound even better on our systems, but we really aren't the reason the vast majority of these mixes are being funded and created.

We may not be the majority of the consumers in that space, but we are a part of it. And as long as the music continues to sound amazing in a space with a proper speaker setup, I'm really not concerned with how the percentages fall. And some of the younger headphone users may become converts at some point in the future too.