HiRez Poll Benson, George - BREEZIN' [SACD/DVD-A]

[kap'n krunch]

Yes - very disappointing, I do like the album

yeah..that's the letdown,,I love George Benson (btw.. he's a HUGE dude!!!) and this is a seminal album...

 

[Spock]

yeah..that's the letdown,,I love George Benson (btw.. he's a HUGE dude!!!) and this is a seminal album...

Well Kap'n, this is one album we will not be feeding our car subs with. With the dynamics right - this would have been an easy 9.

 

[GOS]

haha - I had to go back and see what I voted. YIkes...I gave it a 5! I haven't listened to this 1 time since the first time. At least for my ears, it simply has no POP!, No bass...nada. Oh well. I have about a zillion other discs to listen to.

 

[bmoura]

I was pretty excited to get the SACD, only to be very disappointed. I seriously only listened to the first 2 songs. That was enough to tell me it was simply a very weak mix. Where the hell is the bass? Waste of my money. I give it a 5.

The SACD has a tweaked version of the DVD-A Surround mix. Not the best Surround mix out there, but certainly more listenable than the DVD Audio version.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

haha - I had to go back and see what I voted. YIkes...I gave it a 5! I haven't listened to this 1 time since the first time. At least for my ears, it simply has no POP!, No bass...nada. Oh well. I have about a zillion other discs to listen to.

I have to say that I wasn't happy with either surround version...

 

[edisonbaggins]

**AF SACD**
A little underwhelming, sonically and musically, but pleasant enough. Not sure what I'll rate it, but probably a 7ish score.
In my listening room I do not hear distracting reverb, FWIW. I am not familiar with the original, FWIW.
I recommend this if your panties aren't in a twist over the LP... hahaha

 

[leevitalone1]

Never forget the day in the late 70's, I had a nice 65 watt marantz and a nice tt. Stereo, but, it was nice. One day, I had this person I knew stop by, and he was always asking for money. Trying to hint he should go, he did not catch on, I put Breezin LP on, and began one of the best sonic experiences ever. I started to juice it, lowered the tone each time until I had violins in my house! I cannot describe how 'present" and alive they were. Filled the room, as if they were right there.
The dude split-never did see him again, but, I was getting comp. from all my neighbors for days. It was only once I had the desire to do that, but, will never for get how good it was. I have the dvd a now, good stuff!!

 

[fredblue]

So you're saying playing this record is a good way to get rid of unwanted house guests..! COOL

 

[oxenholme]

So you're saying playing this record is a good way to get rid of unwanted house guests..! COOL

Well Adam, it would get rid of me before you even press PLAY.

 

[sperezmore]

I outlined the problems with the DVD-A version of this album in this thread, and to be honest a combination of morbid curiousity, cheap price, and the fact that Brian Moura WOULDN'T SHUT UP (honestly, does this guy work for Audio Fidelity or something? ) about the fact that the SACD sounded different/better than the old DVD-A led me to end up buying it.

I'm happy to report that the SACD, while not perfect (and missing the DVD-A bonus tracks) is a significant improvement over the old DVD-A and not just a simple recycling of the old master.


If you read my old thread, one of the problems I had with the DVD-A was that the frequency response abruptly cut off at 18kHz, which isn't even CD quality, and definitely not 'high resolution'. There's a perfect example of this treble loss in the first track, 'Breezin'' - there's a tambourine mixed in the rear left channel, and on the DVD-A it's really harsh and mid-rangey, which is totally unlike the stereo mix where it's nice and smooth and sits perfectly in the mix. The problem isn't that the midrange has been boosted on the DVD-A, it's missing all of that high frequency goodness so its midrange sticks out like a sore thumb by comparison. The new SACD has high frequency content well above 30kHz, and tonally sounds much more like the original stereo mix, ie. really good.


Have a look at this spectral analysis of the first track on the album, Breezin'. The green plot is the DVD-A (PCM) version...notice how it dives off a cliff starting at 10kHz and is totally gone well before 20kHz. Now look at the pink plot, which is the SACD (DSD) version, which shows flat frequency response well up to 20kHz and beyond.

View attachment 16935

I don't know if the mastering of the 5.1 is technically a new mastering, but it's definitely different from the mastering on the DVD-A. In addition to the high frequency content you can see there's a bit of pronounced bass response between 300Hz and 400Hz on that plot too. Also, the LFE channel appears to be newly derived - it's louder than the old one, and on track 6 ('Lady') the DVD-A had the orchestral intro in the LFE channel (copy and paste mistake?) whereas this new SACD does not. Interesting!

Having said that, I still think you need to pretty radically boost the center speaker to make this mix sound good. If you're listening to this album thinking 'where's the bass?' the answer is 'it's in the center speaker!' Based on my previous alterations of the center speaker for tweaking the 5.1 mix on the DVD-A I've come up with some new numbers for tweaking the SACD version if you've converted it to PCM like me and are going to re-author to FLAC. They are as follows: Track 1: 10.5dB, Track 2: 14dB, Track 3: 12.5dB, Track 4: 12.5dB, Track 5: 10.5dB, Track 6: 12.5dB. I don't feel that you need to tweak the LFE track on this release because the newly derived version on this release seems to do the job.

Is this a great mix? Probably not. But I definitely think it's a good one, especially if you boost the center speaker. The new SACD is a substantial improvement in sound quality over the old version and I'm glad it's been released. If you like this album at all, I think it's worth buying - I don't think it deserves the 'smooth jazz' moniker a lot of people use derisively to describe it either. There are a lot of strings and other sweeteners used to broaden it's appeal, but at the core of the album is some really strong, sometimes aggressive ensemble playing.

Steelydave,

Thank you very much for your review, I have the DVD Audio and I love the album. Just bought the SACD based on your recommendation, should have it by the end of the week.

Regards,

 

[sperezmore]

I outlined the problems with the DVD-A version of this album in this thread, and to be honest a combination of morbid curiousity, cheap price, and the fact that Brian Moura WOULDN'T SHUT UP (honestly, does this guy work for Audio Fidelity or something? ) about the fact that the SACD sounded different/better than the old DVD-A led me to end up buying it.

I'm happy to report that the SACD, while not perfect (and missing the DVD-A bonus tracks) is a significant improvement over the old DVD-A and not just a simple recycling of the old master.


If you read my old thread, one of the problems I had with the DVD-A was that the frequency response abruptly cut off at 18kHz, which isn't even CD quality, and definitely not 'high resolution'. There's a perfect example of this treble loss in the first track, 'Breezin'' - there's a tambourine mixed in the rear left channel, and on the DVD-A it's really harsh and mid-rangey, which is totally unlike the stereo mix where it's nice and smooth and sits perfectly in the mix. The problem isn't that the midrange has been boosted on the DVD-A, it's missing all of that high frequency goodness so its midrange sticks out like a sore thumb by comparison. The new SACD has high frequency content well above 30kHz, and tonally sounds much more like the original stereo mix, ie. really good.


Have a look at this spectral analysis of the first track on the album, Breezin'. The green plot is the DVD-A (PCM) version...notice how it dives off a cliff starting at 10kHz and is totally gone well before 20kHz. Now look at the pink plot, which is the SACD (DSD) version, which shows flat frequency response well up to 20kHz and beyond.

View attachment 16935

I don't know if the mastering of the 5.1 is technically a new mastering, but it's definitely different from the mastering on the DVD-A. In addition to the high frequency content you can see there's a bit of pronounced bass response between 300Hz and 400Hz on that plot too. Also, the LFE channel appears to be newly derived - it's louder than the old one, and on track 6 ('Lady') the DVD-A had the orchestral intro in the LFE channel (copy and paste mistake?) whereas this new SACD does not. Interesting!

Having said that, I still think you need to pretty radically boost the center speaker to make this mix sound good. If you're listening to this album thinking 'where's the bass?' the answer is 'it's in the center speaker!' Based on my previous alterations of the center speaker for tweaking the 5.1 mix on the DVD-A I've come up with some new numbers for tweaking the SACD version if you've converted it to PCM like me and are going to re-author to FLAC. They are as follows: Track 1: 10.5dB, Track 2: 14dB, Track 3: 12.5dB, Track 4: 12.5dB, Track 5: 10.5dB, Track 6: 12.5dB. I don't feel that you need to tweak the LFE track on this release because the newly derived version on this release seems to do the job.

Is this a great mix? Probably not. But I definitely think it's a good one, especially if you boost the center speaker. The new SACD is a substantial improvement in sound quality over the old version and I'm glad it's been released. If you like this album at all, I think it's worth buying - I don't think it deserves the 'smooth jazz' moniker a lot of people use derisively to describe it either. There are a lot of strings and other sweeteners used to broaden it's appeal, but at the core of the album is some really strong, sometimes aggressive ensemble playing.

Steelydave,

Thank you very much for your review, I have the DVD Audio and I love the album. Just bought the SACD based on your recommendation, should have it by the end of the week.

Regards,

 

[rtbluray]

Just finished my first (and maybe only) listen-through of this SACD, and it's a '7' for me:

Music Content: 2/3
Surround Mix: 1/3
Fidelity: 3/3
High-Res Disc: 1/1

 

[GOS]

I was pretty excited to get the SACD, only to be very disappointed. I seriously only listened to the first 2 songs. That was enough to tell me it was simply a very weak mix. Where the hell is the bass? Waste of my money. I give it a 5.

I never clarified that I had the older SACD. I now also have the AF version, but never opened it. :yikes

 

[rtbluray]

I never clarified that I had the older SACD. I now also have the AF version, but never opened it. :yikes

There's only one Multichannel SACD of this album that was ever produced, and it was the one released by Audio Fidelity.
The original Multichannel release of this album was exclusively on DVDA-V until Audio Fidelity released their SACD in 2014.

 

[GOS]

There's only one Multichannel SACD of this album that was ever produced, and it was the one released by Audio Fidelity.
The original Multichannel release of this album was exclusively on DVDA-V until Audio Fidelity released their SACD in 2014.

That's odd - well, then. I obviously have the DVD-A-V...but have forgotten. I never listen to it. Hmmm.

EDIT - maybe it's time to unwrap that baby!

 

[fredblue]

That's odd - well, then. I obviously have the DVD-A-V...but have forgotten. I never listen to it. Hmmm.

EDIT - maybe it's time to unwrap that baby!

oh go on Gene! be a devil, live a little! unwrap that baby! New Year = New You!

fwiw I always liked this one.. musically its my cup tea for the most part.. and aspects of the sound and surround are great, I think.. but steelydave opened my ears/eyes with his recommended adjustments (I got ripped a new arsehole over @the SHF for even deigning to suggest there might have been something up with the old 5.1 back when this AF SACD was first announced.. I did and still do believe there were some major cock ups made with the 5.1 back in the day.. but when you tinker with the various channel levels as Dave advises things improve quite a bit imho. take my advice and take his advice and try it for yourself and see if you like it with more centre channel activity, more bass and less reverb.. or not

now I think of it, the old DVD-A packaging rather curiously had a Dolby HX Pro logo (or something out of place like that on the reverse..? and steelydave posted prev about a HF cut off on the DVD-A vs the new AF SACD.. hmm.. I wonder if they utilised some Dolby or some such studio voodoo to cut out master tape hiss or something weird like that and in the process chopped off the hi freq's?

I do prefer the sound on the new AF SACD quite a bit and the Stereo remaster is de-luvverly.. but the omission of Down Here On The Ground is borderline unforgivable imho, its not only the best thing not on the album - and right up there with the best things on the album - its the best thing on the old DVD-A from a surround pov and required the least jiggery pokery to get it sounding right in the first place.

 

[4-earredwonder]

oh go on Gene! be a devil, live a little! unwrap that baby! New Year = New You!

fwiw I always liked this one.. musically its my cup tea for the most part.. and aspects of the sound and surround are great, I think.. but steelydave opened my ears/eyes with his recommended adjustments (I got ripped a new arsehole over @the SHF for even deigning to suggest there might have been something up with the old 5.1 back when this AF SACD was first announced.. I did and still do believe there were some major cock ups made with the 5.1 back in the day.. but when you tinker with the various channel levels as Dave advises things improve quite a bit imho. take my advice and take his advice and try it for yourself and see if you like it with more centre channel activity, more bass and less reverb.. or not

now I think of it, the old DVD-A packaging rather curiously had a Dolby HX Pro logo (or something out of place like that on the reverse..? and steelydave posted prev about a HF cut off on the DVD-A vs the new AF SACD.. hmm.. I wonder if they utilised some Dolby or some such studio voodoo to cut out master tape hiss or something weird like that and in the process chopped off the hi freq's?

I do prefer the sound on the new AF SACD quite a bit and the Stereo remaster is de-luvverly.. but the omission of Down Here On The Ground is borderline unforgivable imho, its not only the best thing not on the album - and right up there with the best things on the album - its the best thing on the old DVD-A from a surround pov and required the least jiggery pokery to get it sounding right in the first place.

I FINALLY voted on the 2014 AF SACD reissue of Breezin' and gave it a 7. And I wholeheartedly agree with Adam that the omission of both Shark Bite and Down Here on the Ground (a hommage to Wes Montgomery???) was a major disappointment because even on the old DVD~A which WAS a disaster, IMO, tweaks nothwithstanding, sounded better than ALL previous cuts.

Ironically, Monster's LOSSY DTS 5.1 of Benson's Songs and Stories sounds better on my system than either the LOSSLESS DVD~A from Warners and the 'much improved' AF reissued 5.1 SACD of Breezin, IMO.

I really believe steelydave was correct in assuming that somehow the higher frequencies WERE truncated when transferring Breezing to hi res physical disc in 5.1. All I know is that when both Shark Bite and Down Here On The Ground, the two bonus tracks on the DVD~A, kick in....it's like somehow the surround mix and high frequencies are miraculously restored.

 

[bmoura]

There's only one Multichannel SACD of this album that was ever produced, and it was the one released by Audio Fidelity.
The original Multichannel release of this album was exclusively on DVDA-V until Audio Fidelity released their SACD in 2014.

True - although there is also a Stereo Single Layer SACD of Breezin' that was issued by Warner Japan (WPGR-10014) before the Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD was released.
http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/7287

 

[4-earredwonder]

True - although there is also a Stereo Single Layer SACD of Breezin' that was issued by Warner Japan (WPGR-10014) before the Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD was released.
http://sa-cd.net/showtitle/7287

If you read the sole review over at the old SA~CD.net and on CDJapan's website, the single layered SHM~SACD of Breezin' got trashed as well.

And yet I've read [somewhere] that the Vinyl version was excellent.

Breezin' won a Grammy for best engineered album [other than classical] in 1977*...........What gives?

[*runners up were, among others, Alan Parsons for 'Tales of Mystery and Imagination' and Gary Wright 'Dream Weaver'].

 

[bmoura]

If you read the sole review over at the old SA~CD.net and on CDJapan's website, the single layered SHM~SACD of Breezin' got trashed as well.

Can't comment one way or the other there.
I've never heard the Warner Japan SACD edition of Breezin' - only the Multichannel SACD and DVD-A editions which I own.