CD-4 Cartridge Stylus Recommendations

[J. PUPSTER]

Yes

I like my AT15S, not exact stats, but a AT15Sa ? Has good specs with the Shibata. Just finding one in great shape is the trick. I believe I paid about $125-150 IIRC.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at15.shtml

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.theaudioamateur.com/74_02/74_02_full_issue.pdf#page=7 (a little lite reading)
^^^
In my early experience, playing my first JVC/CD-4 recording, I found the sound absolutely "mind-boggling."


I haven't found the comment yet, but, IIRC, Greg Bogantz (developer of the RCA Quadulator CD-4 encoder) said that RCA used the JVC 4MD-20X CD-4 cart throughout the entire production run of CD-4 at the RCA Indianapolis facility.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/jvc/4md-20x.shtml
https://www.turntableneedles.com/jvc-cartridge-4md-20x-stylus-201b-dq-jvc-4md-20x

Kirk Bayne

 

[J. PUPSTER]

https://www.theaudioamateur.com/74_02/74_02_full_issue.pdf#page=7 (a little lite reading)
^^^
In my early experience, playing my first JVC/CD-4 recording, I found the sound absolutely "mind-boggling."


I haven't found the comment yet, but, IIRC, Greg Bogantz (developer of the RCA Quadulator CD-4 encoder) said that RCA used the JVC 4MD-20X CD-4 cart throughout the entire production run of CD-4 at the RCA Indianapolis facility.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/jvc/4md-20x.shtml
https://www.turntableneedles.com/jvc-cartridge-4md-20x-stylus-201b-dq-jvc-4md-20x

Kirk Bayne

What about a 10x
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/jvc/4md-10x.shtmlhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/203812172573?hash=item2f7426f31d:g:09UAAOSwIK9h9wbV

 

[Doug G.]

The ideal upper limit for CD-4 cartridges is 50kHz to ensure a linear response to likely sideband frequencies. However, even a cartridge with response to 40kHz - 45kHz will work satisfactorily because the vast majority of information is contained at that or lower frequencies. If you can, shoot for 50kHz.

Doug

 

[kfbkfb]

What about a 10x

I don't know, I just remembered the comment by Greg Bogantz (not in quad related forum) and I was a little surprised that RCA didn't upgrade to Audio-Technica carts (AT15 or AT20 series).

(Greg Bogantz also used a JVC 4DD-5 demod, which he modified a little so that CD-4 playback sounded much closer to the quad master tape [he also did a lot of CD-4 mastering]).


Kirk Bayne

 

[jupp369]

I started with the AT20 lim and a VM35 before 50 years. Now I'm using a Nagaoka JT-322 for CD-4. While recording it shows a clear 30kHz pilot tone.

 

[MidiMagic]

Since no CD-4 records are being made today, are any pickups actually being made for CD-4 today?

 

[Wathen1955]

I have an Audio Technica AT12s that I bought new back in the mid 70's. I actually bought 2 and kept one that was unopened. Glad I did because when I wanted to put together my system again, the one that I was using was broken (i.e. the tip broke off). So I popped in my new AT12s. Audio-Technica stylus for Audio-Technica AT12S cartridge

 

[J. PUPSTER]

All right, y'all. I get that recommending a cart/stylus for CD-4 is tough.
But just go with it! Knowing there are some caveats to consider, what is a solid choice to start out with?
It can't be impossible, or nobody would be listening to CD-4...
Thanks.

Seems like it should be an easy question to nail down right -LOL

Need to be concerned about cart/stylus performance and shape, matching the cart. to the tonearm, tracking force and VTA etc., turntable being stable (old ones aren't always), cable performance, whether the contacts between the carts. and TT are clean, whether the old Demodulators are still functioning properly (hit or miss), making sure the vinyl is as clean as can be, etc. etc.

It's no wonder the format didn't last long, we've gradually adjusted our expectations with the advancement of music technology, we want everything to be Plug 'n Play. But once you struggle through all of the above and finally get to something that all comes together, you are rewarded with some amazingly discrete surround music that may not yet be available anywhere else. The hobby provides a real sense of accomplishment, if it doesn't drive you nuts first.

 

[kfbkfb]

IMHO, CD-4 was moving in the direction of simpler operation - in ~1975, Technics developed an automatic front/back separation system and the P-Mount turntable/tonearm/cart tech would have solved the CD-4 cart alignment issues - if CD-4 had lasted, I think it would have become as easy to play a CD-4 disc at it was/is to play a stereo/mono LP.


Kirk Bayne

 

[jefe1]

I was using a Dual 1225 turntable, made for CD4 it has a CD4 antiskating scale adjustment with a Grado Prestige Red cartridge and stylus. It worked and I brought it to a quad guys house who tested it with several hard to play records including a Cat Stevens and he agreed.
Im not currently set up for CD4 and using a different turntable but I would like to try that again.
Has anyone here tried Grado cartridges or the more expensive Ortofons?

 

[edisonbaggins]

I was using a Dual 1225 turntable, made for CD4 it has a CD4 antiskating scale adjustment with a Grado Prestige Red cartridge and stylus. It worked and I brought it to a quad guys house who tested it with several hard to play records including a Cat Stevens and he agreed.
Im not currently set up for CD4 and using a different turntable but I would like to try that again.
Has anyone here tried Grado cartridges or the more expensive Ortofons?

Are all Dual 1225's made for CD-4?

 

[edisonbaggins]

The ideal upper limit for CD-4 cartridges is 50kHz to ensure a linear response to likely sideband frequencies. However, even a cartridge with response to 40kHz - 45kHz will work satisfactorily because the vast majority of information is contained at that or lower frequencies. If you can, shoot for 50kHz.

Doug

Please list carts and styli that you recommend...

 

[jefe1]

Are all Dual 1225's made for CD-4?

Yes.

The better Dual of that vintage is a 1229Q also made for quad. The regular 1229 is not designated it may not have the special capacitance wiring. Both models let you unplug the turntable cables and replace them but its the wiring in the tonearm you have to be concerned about.
The 1229s have a full size platter my 1225 is three quarter size. It was kind of the budget model in the line. But it can be found cheap. They are driven by a rubber wheel no belts.
There may be a couple later model Duals made for CD4. Look for a CD4 adjustment on the antiskating setting

 

[kfbkfb]

Please list carts and styli that you recommend...

I believe this is the post Doug G. referred to:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...your-pile-cd-4-ud-4.14937/page-52#post-637757

Kirk Bayne

 

[edisonbaggins]

I believe this is the post Doug G. referred to:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...your-pile-cd-4-ud-4.14937/page-52#post-637757

Kirk Bayne

Thanks!

 

[Doug G.]

Please list carts and styli that you recommend...

I posted the ones I have in the "What's your latest Discrete...CD-4..." thread.

I didn't see Kirk's post before this.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I posted the ones I have in the "What's your latest Discrete...CD-4..." thread.

I didn't see Kirk's post before this.

I hear ya, Doug. Problem is keeping all the recommendations straight, when they're scattered. The other thread isn't really targeted at that. This one is.

 

[MidiMagic]

Yes.

The better Dual of that vintage is a 1229Q also made for quad. The regular 1229 is not designated it may not have the special capacitance wiring. Both models let you unplug the turntable cables and replace them but its the wiring in the tonearm you have to be concerned about.
The 1229s have a full size platter my 1225 is three quarter size. It was kind of the budget model in the line. But it can be found cheap. They are driven by a rubber wheel no belts.
There may be a couple later model Duals made for CD4. Look for a CD4 adjustment on the antiskating setting

The Dual 1229Q replaced the Dual 1229 in the company's line when CD-4 became a serious contender in quadraphonics. At that time, I was working for a dealer selling Dual.

I had a Dual 1225 for a short time. It was not CD-4 ready.

CD-4 ready turntables/arms have 3 scales for antiskate: conical, elliptical, and Shibata.

 

[Doug G.]

Carrier Crosstalk Considerations in the CD-4 System - AES Journal July/August 1977

Regular production CD-4 records (no special test records needed) can be used for this test.

I haven't tried this method, apparently a Digital Audio Workstation can be used (along with an amplifier to bring the cart level up to line level for the PC).

The limiter in a CD-4 demod can (mostly) compensate for poor frequency response in a cart, but not poor channel separation above 15kHz (where the FM carriers are).

http://www.pspatialaudio.com/stylus_wear.htm^^^
...low tracking force (below 1½ grams) [are critical] in achieving long record and tip life.


Kirk Bayne

The Technics SH-400 has Carrier Crosstalk Cancellation controls and I was in a discussion, once, about using production records to set them since the original test/setup disc supplied only with the SH-400 or a few other CD-4 equipped Technics products are all but impossible to find.

I have done it this way and the meter does react when playing a production CD-4 LP so I set the controls for a minimum reading on the meter for each channel. However, I kind of doubt whether this is really kosher and setting the CCC controls anywhere in their rotation really doesn't make much difference in performance (it always works well) anyway. I know what the circuit must be doing during the CCC test and a production LP would always have carriers present on both channels.

It sure would be great to be able to get one of the original test/setup discs, just for completeness.

Doug