CD-4 Cartridge Stylus Recommendations

[trevorspiro]

Ok, folks! Lots of CD-4 advice has been exchanged over the last few weeks. It's all much appreciated!
I think it would be helpful (to me) to break down the advice by specific items.

So... carts and styluses!

Here are the compiled recommendations, thus far (updated 8/8/2022):

ADC
ZLM
SX LM MK II

Audio Technica
AT440MLA
AT440MLB
AT12SA
AT14SA
AT15SA
AT15SS
AT20SS
AT20SLA
AT912Sa
ATVM740ML

Band & Olufsen
MMC6000
MMC5000

Empire
4000D I/II/III
440D

Grace (Sumiko)
F8/F
F8/E
F-9F
F-9U

JVC
X 1
4MD-20x
CD4-1000

Micro/Acoustics
QDC-1G

Nakamichi
MC-1000

Ortofon
SL20Q
MC-20
MC-20 Mk II

Panasonic
EPC-451
EPC-450C II

Pickering
XUV-4500Q
UV15-2400Q
UV15-2000Q

Pioneer
PC-Q1

Satin
M-117X

Shure
M 24H

Sonic Research
Blue Label
Silver Label P

Stanton
780-4DQ
780-Q

Strain gauge
???

Technics
EPC-45OC-II

Win Laboratories
SDT-10

Criteria I care about:

1) Easy compatibility, e.g. some carts/stylii need a special preamp. Let's avoid those, unless they're clearly ultra superior. Bear in mind that a TT and/or demod might need to be acquired, so a cart/stylus that plays well with lots of gear will leave the most options later.
2) Currently manufactured, i.e. let's avoid discontinued models that might, or might not, be available.
3) Value, e.g. let's avoid $5k carts. Several hundred dollars is doable.
4) Good sound! Let's avoid products that really just don't do it for ya! I'm no audiophile. If it's decent, I should be happy.

Thanks for the help! I'd like to make a cart/stylus purchase soon and get this show on the road, as they say!

 

[trevorspiro]

Ok, folks! Lots of CD-4 advice has been exchanged over the last few weeks. It's all much appreciated!
I think it would be helpful (to me) to break down the advice by specific items.

So... carts and styluses!

Here are the compiled recommendations, thus far (updated 8/8/2022):

ADC
ZLM
SX LM MK II

Audio Technica
AT440MLA
AT440MLB
AT12SA
AT14SA
AT15SA
AT15SS
AT20SS
AT20SLA
AT912Sa
ATVM740ML

Band & Olufsen
MMC6000
MMC5000

Empire
4000D I/II/III
440D

Grace (Sumiko)
F8/F
F8/E
F-9F
F-9U

JVC
X 1
4MD-20x
CD4-1000

Micro/Acoustics
QDC-1G

Nakamichi
MC-1000

Ortofon
SL20Q
MC-20
MC-20 Mk II

Panasonic
EPC-451
EPC-450C II

Pickering
XUV-4500Q
UV15-2400Q
UV15-2000Q

Pioneer
PC-Q1

Satin
M-117X

Shure
M 24H

Sonic Research
Blue Label
Silver Label P

Stanton
780-4DQ
780-Q

Strain gauge
???

Technics
EPC-45OC-II

Win Laboratories
SDT-10

Criteria I care about:

1) Easy compatibility, e.g. some carts/stylii need a special preamp. Let's avoid those, unless they're clearly ultra superior. Bear in mind that a TT and/or demod might need to be acquired, so a cart/stylus that plays well with lots of gear will leave the most options later.
2) Currently manufactured, i.e. let's avoid discontinued models that might, or might not, be available.
3) Value, e.g. let's avoid $5k carts. Several hundred dollars is doable.
4) Good sound! Let's avoid products that really just don't do it for ya! I'm no audiophile. If it's decent, I should be happy.

Thanks for the help! I'd like to make a cart/stylus purchase soon and get this show on the road, as they say!

 

[trevorspiro]

One excellent brand you have not mentioned is Grado. Grado’s lineup is generally moving magnet with excellent compatibility with most tonearms. Their basic range is reasonably priced, in my opinion, with the Gold 3 the one to look out for in respect of its outstanding mid range representation. Grado cartridges have upper frequency responses particularly suitable for CD4 playback, as I know from prior experience. An excellent system would be a Rega Planar 2 turntable with fitted arm and a Grado Gold 3.

 

[par4ken]

One excellent brand you have not mentioned is Grado. Grado’s lineup is generally moving magnet with excellent compatibility with most tonearms. Their basic range is reasonably priced, in my opinion, with the Gold 3 the one to look out for in respect of its outstanding mid range representation. Grado cartridges have upper frequency responses particularly suitable for CD4 playback, as I know from prior experience. An excellent system would be a Rega Planar 2 turntable with fitted arm and a Grado Gold 3.

My cartridge for years was the Grado F1+. It replaced my Shure M91ED and I loved the difference in sound! The Shure seemed to emphasize the mid bass more, the Grado just sounded right. CD-4 wise I always had problems, the usual sandpaper on the inner grooves. I didn't bother with low capacitance cables back in the day as the Grado was supposed to not require them due to the Supefluxbridger design. Perhaps that boast was overstated?

Other factors that I could've should've paid more attention to was precise cartridge alignment and bias adjustment.

The set up notes supplied with the Grado were rather interesting in that they say not to use the test record and to simply turn the carrier level to maximum and the separation control to the mid position. That does not seem to be a very scientific set up procedure but might actually be the best place to start, then tweek with the test record?

I wonder about the replacement stylus over the years the F1+ was changed to the G1+ and was coloured beige (like their lower end cartridges) rather than black but had the same blue dots as the original.

Now days I think that the proper replacement is the gold (or is it silver) styli! The new black stylus with the blue dots is actually a lower end model!

Confusion reigns!

 

[edisonbaggins]

One excellent brand you have not mentioned is Grado. Grado’s lineup is generally moving magnet with excellent compatibility with most tonearms. Their basic range is reasonably priced, in my opinion, with the Gold 3 the one to look out for in respect of its outstanding mid range representation. Grado cartridges have upper frequency responses particularly suitable for CD4 playback, as I know from prior experience. An excellent system would be a Rega Planar 2 turntable with fitted arm and a Grado Gold 3.

Dude... I got bludgeoned for daring to consider styli without rock-solid recommendations from others around here. Learned my lesson...

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ator-pre-order-list.10169/page-10#post-122891
Louis Dorren was impressed enough with Grado carts for CD-4 that he planned to include a Grado prestige Gold cart with a True Shibata stylus with his new CD-4 demodulator (sadly, never built).


IMHO, the Pspatial Audio advice is the best - use a vintage CD-4 cart (so long as a new stylus can be obtained).


Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

My ADC ZLM cart/stylus works for CD-4 demodulation.
Only briefly, preliminarily tested, but, to my ears, just as successful as my Pickering XUV/d4500Q.

I just love my ADC ZLM, best of both worlds - no magnet , no coil on shaft, high output.

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

That ADC ZLM is special. Many years ago I passed on a slightly used one. Made me think.. or reminiesce... Ha

I'm recalling they did not promote the CD-4 capable cartridges for playing stereo records. There was a fear of record damage and premature wear. In retrospect, it may have been fear due to early CD-4 records, made with existing vinyl and not of the new more durable vinyl, touted and marketed as SuperVinyl. What I've read/heard... the Shibata, combined with the heavier carts, supposedly ate records before they changed vinyl formulations. Which was no doubt a process, one drawn-out and and more than likely, inconsistent. Me as the buyer... I was led to believe there was a downside to buying cartridges for CD-4 to play stereo records. If I had a nickel...

Moved to Boston for school in 1976. Music was a Korvette's purchased gift from my folks, an all-in-one Electrophonic Turntable/Receiver. Times were good, but financially challenging... I owned a "Used" QuadraDisc copy of Allman Brothers "Eat a Peach". I've still never heard it, nor Live at Fillmore East in 4 channel. Accept 2 channel through a 4 channel universal decoder.

The transition to HiFi, never mind Quad HiFi when you're essentially broke, pretty tough... Back then, I remember an ADC ZLM... Yes, very pricey... Boston/Cambridge and suburbs were a hotbed of HiFi Manufacturers. ADC among them. That first HiFi was epic... Learning relative values then versus today. Turntable cost versus just the cartridge/stylus cost.

Spent most of year buying individual components; turntable, Integrated Amp, Tuner, Turntable, Cart & speakers; Nikko, Micro Acoustics, Micro Seiki. It was working constantly, evening bartending & lab assistant days. Boston 1978. Tech HiFi

So, also on the cartridge, LP Gear had this:

"The ADC ZLM cartridge was considered one of the finest cartridges of its time. Considering that this accolade was bestowed during the zenith of cartridge manufacturing, the ZLM must have really been a truly exceptional product - then and more so now. It replaced the venerable XLM as the top of the line model: the main difference being a semi-Shiabata stylus ADC nomenclatured Aliptic. The stylus has a lower radius of 0.2 mil and an upper radius of 1.5 mils with the advantages being better high frequency resolution and tracking coupled with a marked reduction in record wear.

Tbe cartridge is packaged in a silver plastic case which looks like a space ship's nose. Contents include mounting hardware, stylus cleaning brush and a small screwdriver.

ADC ZLM Cartridge Details
- Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz ± 1.0dB; 20Hz - 26 kHz ± 1.5dB
- Output: 3.5 mV
- Stylus type: Nude Aliptic diamond tip
- Diamond tip dimensions: 0.0002" scanning radius × 0.0015 bearing radius
- Tracking force: 0.5 - 1.25 g ± 0.25 g
- Output balance: 1dB max difference
- Channel separation: 30 dB at 1kHz; 20 dB at 10kHz
- Inductance: 580 mH
- Resistance: 820 ohms
- Load resistance: 47,000 ohms
- Load capacitance: 275 pF
- Cartridge weight: 5.75 grams"

 

[par4ken]

I always understood that Shibatta styli even with higher tracking force were easier on records as it contacts more of the groove!

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

Others have been kind enough to post online scans, apparently having the same conversations about the cartridge !

We all thought it was the end of the road for vinyl... The ZLM's engineering is really post CD-4 with the exception of specialty and Japanese market. What was amazing was the very low tracking force... best stuff comes out just before the cliff !

 

[kfbkfb]

https://pspatialaudio.com/CD-4 wear.htm
High tracking force + conical/elliptical stylus shapes do damage the CD-4 record grooves, but a True Shibata stylus will contact a little of the upper half (completely undamaged part) of the record groove.

I don't know if this benefit of using a True Shibata stylus was part of the stylus shape design criteria or whether it was discovered after CD-4 discs made on conventional vinyl were released.

I also don't know of other line contact stylus shapes (not Shibata) will have this same benefit.

(I may have posted this info earlier in this thread)


Kirk Bayne

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

1.Ortofon SL-15Q & STM75...
2. Technics EPC-460C and EPC-465C (SC (Semi-Conductor: Strain Gauge)
3. Audio Technics Pro-14S (with ATS14 Shibata Stylus)

Note: These Panasonic/Technics carts require a Strain Gauge (SC) preamp as does those already on your list, the EPC-450C II and EPC-451C So its Technics/Panasonic Pre-Amp/Demodulators SE-405 and SH-400.

There may be others, I'm still here to learn !

The Strain Gauge cartridges require further trickiness. The turntable must support the supply of voltage to the cartridge itself. The benefit is that Strain Gauge carts don't suffer from feedback?... So, different electrical & a bit of physics, same stylus.

There is a new preamp solution, high fidelity at that... Recommended by the Stereo Lab folks with links:

PHÆDRUS AUDIO​

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/Groove_sleuth.htm

 

[quadsearcher]

1.Ortofon SL-15Q & STM75...
2. Technics EPC-460C and EPC-465C (SC (Semi-Conductor: Strain Gauge)
3. Audio Technics Pro-14S (with ATS14 Shibata Stylus)

Note: These Panasonic/Technics carts require a Strain Gauge (SC) preamp as does those already on your list, the EPC-450C II and EPC-451C So its Technics/Panasonic Pre-Amp/Demodulators SE-405 and SH-400.

There may be others, I'm still here to learn !

The Strain Gauge cartridges require further trickiness. The turntable must support the supply of voltage to the cartridge itself. The benefit is that Strain Gauge carts don't suffer from feedback?... So, different electrical & a bit of physics, same stylus.

There is a new preamp solution, high fidelity at that... Recommended by the Stereo Lab folks with links:

PHÆDRUS AUDIO​

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/Groove_sleuth.htm

Although I'm not using a SG cart yet, there's a slight error above. The cart requires voltage, which comes from the demodulator. The turntable is just wires here, it is the the cart and demod that are part of the strain-gauge system..

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

I know what you are saying... Should have said; look for others having successfully used a specific turntable with a Cd-4 working cartridge of any type with a working demodulator of any type !

Maybe its crosstalk... or those dang Low Capacitance tone-arm cables... was bad...what kinda Anti Cd-4 Anti-Skating is that? What's this calibrated for? Dialing-in to your satisfaction, a Quad system with vintage gear "must haves" like Demodulators... It takes grit. Ha...

However to respond to the voltage question: I've got a brand new Music Hall US-1 turntable sitting here. It operates through an active preamp (RIAA) with its 20K limit on both the internal phono & line level outputs. Strain Gauge voltage or any other voltage to those RCA's, spells Kentucky Fried !!!

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

Here is another of those Lou Dorren QSI demodulators. Been searching for one for years... I've got remnants of a Heathkit with the chips and board damage. A working SH-400 & another half dozen demodulators. Few work correctly, all need full service.

Message; Clearly with gear that was last produced in the late 70's, there are going to be issues. Open one up... its busy in there, not for the faint of heart, old boards & plastic, leaking components. It can be ugly. Occasionally we get lucky on a unit that seems to work forever, it usually doesn't last. Maybe buy a Variac and take your chances on some NOS demodulators pieces or even better find a fellow locally that does repairs and recapped, refreshed calibrated and tested.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://pspatialaudio.com/JVC_CD-4.htm
There's always the all software CD-4 decoder which will be as new as your computer.

(still needs a CD-4 cart + low capacitance tonearm wiring though)


Kirk Bayne

 

[DudeRocks]

Of all the SC carts, what was everyone's favorite based on sound quality and why? Anything to look out for between them that should be avoided or specifically seek out? I started a new thread on this question here in case it gets to be a hot topic: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...i-vs-451c-vs-460c-whats-the-best-sound.34708/

 

[gene_stl]

The name Lou Dorren rang a bell. I looked at the above link and saw that it was for the SWTP CD4 demodulator. Something I looked at but decided not to pursue. I think I didn't want to operate a separate turntable just to get CD4. I built a LOT of SWTP kits. their AWFUL discrete component op amp preamp and Universal Tigers , Plastic Tigers, Whatever other Tigers they had. I built them for friends mostly because I finally had a pair of MC75s
which I foolishly sold.

 

[Tim7099]

I notice that this thread hasn't had any input for a while so I thought that I would dip my toe in.

When I took an interest in CD-4 a few years ago, there being nothing available in the UK that I could find at the time, I imported an AT14Sa from the States. As with any used item, the stylus hours being unknown, it was not surprising to find problems with break up on certain loud passages, particularly but not exclusively in the rear channels. The first SHF Band LP being virtually unplayable in CD-4. I then sourced a Tonar replacement stylus from the continent but sadly didn't find this to be any better than the original. Maybe it needs more VTF or perhaps there is a certain amount of incompatibility between it and the arm on my Sansui SR222 Mk 1 that I use for CD-4?

Moving on, I recently decided to rest most of my other vintage cartridges and decided to purchase an AT-VM95ML as a cover all replacement. It is slightly cheaper than the SH version and has a 1000 hour stylus rating rather than 800 hours so I thought it might be an idea to try it with CD-4 as an experiment. I am pleased to confirm that it works well and the break up that I had been experiencing previously has all but gone and rather than being constantly on edge waiting for the next "rasp" I can just relax and listen.

The question is though, why does it work? The specs point to a HF response to 25k, rather than the 45k of the AT14Sa and I can only assume that it must have significant output above the 25k point. Perhaps Audio Technica are just being rather modest. Anyway, based on my experience, I can suggest that, as well as the SH version, the AT-VM95ML is also a cost effective answer to CD-4 and no problems in respect of finding one or replacement styli either.

 

[gvl_guy]

I notice that this thread hasn't had any input for a while so I thought that I would dip my toe in.

When I took an interest in CD-4 a few years ago, there being nothing available in the UK that I could find at the time, I imported an AT14Sa from the States. As with any used item, the stylus hours being unknown, it was not surprising to find problems with break up on certain loud passages, particularly but not exclusively in the rear channels. The first SHF Band LP being virtually unplayable in CD-4. I then sourced a Tonar replacement stylus from the continent but sadly didn't find this to be any better than the original. Maybe it needs more VTF or perhaps there is a certain amount of incompatibility between it and the arm on my Sansui SR222 Mk 1 that I use for CD-4?

Moving on, I recently decided to rest most of my other vintage cartridges and decided to purchase an AT-VM95ML as a cover all replacement. It is slightly cheaper than the SH version and has a 1000 hour stylus rating rather than 800 hours so I thought it might be an idea to try it with CD-4 as an experiment. I am pleased to confirm that it works well and the break up that I had been experiencing previously has all but gone and rather than being constantly on edge waiting for the next "rasp" I can just relax and listen.

The question is though, why does it work? The specs point to a HF response to 25k, rather than the 45k of the AT14Sa and I can only assume that it must have significant output above the 25k point. Perhaps Audio Technica are just being rather modest. Anyway, based on my experience, I can suggest that, as well as the SH version, the AT-VM95ML is also a cost effective answer to CD-4 and no problems in respect of finding one or replacement styli either.

I remember years ago when I was first looking into CD-4, everything I read about cartridges at the time was that each one was a little different, even within the same models. That would mean that some rated up to 25k might actually receive 40k ....or even 50k. The specs of the cartridges that showed up to 45k means at "at least" it would reach this amount. That would/could explain why your VM95ML is working so well. It might be rated for 25k on the high end, but it's actually doing much better than that.