Elilot Scheiner interview from Feb. 2022

[mandrix]

@sjcorne In reply to riskylogic who said "That's not it - the problem is making a mix sound good in any format. Something mixed for lossy binaural isn't going to sound good on a lossless bluray and vice-versa." you say:

You've made several remarks about lossy/lossless, where you give me the impression that you may not think lossless is any better than lossy. #39 "Must all threads devolve into lossy vs. lossless?" We all know mastering is maybe the most important criteria, but all things being equal, don't you think lossless is always superior to lossy?

I don't prepose, would not, that @sjcorne prefers lossy over lossless. Not sure how you came to that conclusion from his comments. He has been involved with the IAA site that by and large showcases lossless mixes.
Your comments grow tiresome.

 

[sjcorne]

I don't prepose, would not, that @sjcorne prefers lossy over lossless. Not sure how you came to that conclusion from his comments. He has been involved with the IAA site that by and large showcases lossless mixes.

Yes, surely the guy who wrote this article prefers lossy to lossless
https://immersiveaudioalbum.com/open-letter-the-case-for-hi-res-dolby-atmos-digital-downloads/In all seriousness I do think claims that DD+/JOC Atmos streams are "unlistenable" are way overblown, stuff like the Grateful Dead and Joni Mitchell immersive titles sound fantastic to me even in their current lossy streaming incarnations. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to hear the full-bandwidth version though...

 

[mandrix]

Yes, surely the guy who wrote this article prefers lossy to lossless
https://immersiveaudioalbum.com/open-letter-the-case-for-hi-res-dolby-atmos-digital-downloads/In all seriousness I do think claims that DD+/JOC Atmos streams are "unlistenable" are way overblown, stuff like the Grateful Dead and Joni Mitchell immersive titles sound fantastic to me even in their current lossy streaming incarnations. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to hear the full-bandwidth version though...

I quite agree. I have many titles in lossy format I consider quite stellar, such as Bruce Soord's "All This Will Be Yours".
EDIT: would I rather have lossless? Yes of course. But good is good and one takes what one can get.

 

[jaybird100]

I think the whole point of Scheiner's comments were that Atmos didn't work for music, not the lossy/lossless debate.

 

[mandrix]

Your comments grow tiresome. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Yes. Let's go to our separate corners and take a nap.

 

[AYanguas]

Just my last experience about lossy Atmos streaming and losless Bluray comparison.

First a brief introduction of myself: I like good and clean sound, but I am not an audiophile, neither I believe in magic (linear power supplies, cables and the like). I'm convinced that stereo RB-CD (16/44.1) is indistinguishable from Hi-res (for the same master), at least with my ears.

I always thought that the Atmos streaming of 'xPropaganda-The Heart is strange' was of a good enough sound quality.

I missed the SDE Blu-ray edition, but I've been able to buy one Blu-ray copy from discogs, recently.

With my old ears (I think I cannot reach more than 12kHz), I REALLY FEEL better sound and more clarity from the Blu-ray. Something similar to listening to a MP3 (not more than 96 kbps) and then the CD with the same master.

 

[himey]

Something similar to listening to a MP3 (not more than 96 kbps)

Streaming Atmos doesn't sound that poor from my experience. Thankfully the compression is much smarter than MP3.

 

[AYanguas]

Streaming Atmos doesn't sound that poor from my experience. Thankfully the compression is much smarter than MP3.

I agree. I said I noticed something 'similar' to the difference of a MP3 not high bit rate. Because a 320 MP3 can sound almost equal to the CD.
Actually, if you don't compare, an Atmos streaming sounds good enough. But if compare with the same Blu-ray mix, then there is a difference as I noticed.
It all depends, I think, on the amount of content that is present on all channels. Much simultaneous content in many channels will have less bandwith available for each Channel, and the compression will suffer.

 

[himey]

Much simultaneous content in many channels will have less bandwith available for each Channel, and the compression will suffer.

The aggressive moments on DSOTM are the most dramatic differences between the two formats I have encountered, not counting isolating any specific channels like the tops.

 

[mandrix]

Just my last experience about lossy Atmos streaming and losless Bluray comparison.

First a brief introduction of myself: I like good and clean sound, but I am not an audiophile, neither I believe in magic (linear power supplies, cables and the like). I'm convinced that stereo RB-CD (16/44.1) is indistinguishable from Hi-res (for the same master), at least with my ears.

I always thought that the Atmos streaming of 'xPropaganda-The Heart is strange' was of a good enough sound quality.

I missed the SDE Blu-ray edition, but I've been able to buy one Blu-ray copy from discogs, recently.

With my old ears (I think I cannot reach more than 12kHz), I REALLY FEEL better sound and more clarity from the Blu-ray. Something similar to listening to a MP3 (not more than 96 kbps) and then the CD with the same master.

I agree. It helps that the BD/mastering is of stellar quality. In fact xPropaganda is always one of my recommendations for a good Atmos mix.

 

[mandrix]

I agree. It helps that the BD/mastering is of stellar quality. In fact xPropaganda is always one of my recommendations for a good Atmos mix.

But more to the point, what is an Audiophile, but one seeking good sound? I don't get into the (IMO) snake oil of cables and such, although most of us here have sense enough to buy decent items that will do the job. But If others find that what they buy or incorporate into their sound systems works for them, Who am I to tell them what they hear is not there? I will still scoff at obviously outlandish claims privately or really stupid sometimes publicly. But we all want good sound. Whatever works for others is good. Whatever works for me is good as well.
None of us like being told that what we do is stupid, or wrong, and I confess I sometimes rail against narrow minded thinking when someone tells me I don't know wtf I'm doing when they don't have the same situation as I.
But I'm amenable to being corrected when I'm proven wrong. Sometimes grudgingly, but always I try to respond in the spirit in which the information is given. I've learned so much at QQ over the past few decades from people with different knowledge that I had, or have, at the time. I love that, folks. You are all my inspiration for over 17 years now. (hoping I hit the two decade mark!)

 

[ManWhoCan]

Just my last experience about lossy Atmos streaming and losless Bluray comparison.

First a brief introduction of myself: I like good and clean sound, but I am not an audiophile, neither I believe in magic (linear power supplies, cables and the like). I'm convinced that stereo RB-CD (16/44.1) is indistinguishable from Hi-res (for the same master), at least with my ears.

I always thought that the Atmos streaming of 'xPropaganda-The Heart is strange' was of a good enough sound quality.

I missed the SDE Blu-ray edition, but I've been able to buy one Blu-ray copy from discogs, recently.

With my old ears (I think I cannot reach more than 12kHz), I REALLY FEEL better sound and more clarity from the Blu-ray. Something similar to listening to a MP3 (not more than 96 kbps) and then the CD with the same master.

We are all individuals & our hearing experience is also individual. I'm sorry you can hear no difference between a CD & a Hi-Res of the same mastering. However it is probably saving you a lot of expense in audio gear and Hi-Res purchases

 

[gene_stl]

When you rassles with a pig, you gets mud on yourself, and the pig likes it.

 

[ManWhoCan]

It is very unlikely that most people can distinguish between CD quality and "hi rez" in a correctly done blind test. But don't take my opinion on it read what Dr. Mark Waldrep has to say about it. He produced a whole oevre of multichannel and hi rez content and HE says that CD is good enough.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mark-waldreps-listening-tests.14586/
https://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6993
You may be "sorry you can hear no difference" but it is rather unlikely that you can reliably distinguish between the two. Have you taken Dr. Marks test or otherwise proven that you can?

I've done several a/b blind hearing tests. I can hear a difference. I don't consider myself 'special' so it always surprises me that some people can't hear a difference, but then we are all indivuduals on our own journeys in our own vehicles. I prefer to rely on my own real world experience rather than theories from people with personal agendas.