Elliot Scheiner & Audio Fidelity Announce 5.1 SACD Partnership

[rtbluray]

I have the DVD-A, but I know I'd definitely be picking up the AF SACD if they do it...

Same here!
It would especially be a worthwhile reissue on SACD if both the stereo and surround mixes were recorded to analogue tape, as it seems mastering to DSD from tape is better than a digital conversion.

 

[steelydave]

I don't know about the stereo mix, but the surround mix on the DVD-A is 44.1kHz 24 bit. I don't even know if it's true 24-bit, it's possible that it's actually only 16 or 20 bit as it was originally mixed for DTS CD and then re-released as a DVD-A and most likely the project was set up in the intended delivery format resolution. That's one of the reasons that Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' was remixed a second time before it was released on SACD, they felt that the mix done for the DTS CD didn't take full advantage of the format because it was basically CD resolution.

Obviously it's entirely personal opinion but put me in the camp that finds this album pretty dull. The production, mix and musicianship are strong but for me the songs start out ok and get more forgettable as the album goes on. Could AF really sell a thousand/thousands of SACDs of this title?

 

[rtbluray]

I don't know about the stereo mix, but the surround mix on the DVD-A is 44.1kHz 24 bit. I don't even know if it's true 24-bit, it's possible that it's actually only 16 or 20 bit as it was originally mixed for DTS CD and then re-released as a DVD-A and most likely the project was set up in the intended delivery format resolution. That's one of the reasons that Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' was remixed a second time before it was released on SACD, they felt that the mix done for the DTS CD didn't take full advantage of the format because it was basically CD resolution.

Obviously it's entirely personal opinion but put me in the camp that finds this album pretty dull. The production, mix and musicianship are strong but for me the songs start out ok and get more forgettable as the album goes on. Could AF really sell a thousand/thousands of SACDs of this title?

The back of the original CD says "AAD", so that would be an analogue recording, analogue mix, and digital mastering.
It could also be possible that the surround mix was recorded to analogue tape and then mastered in the digital domain to 44.1 kHz/24 bit for DVDA & DTSCD, but I wouldn't know for sure either way.
And I completely disagree in that "Toy Matinee" is a strong album from start to finish. Not a bad song on the whole disc and one that I never get tired of listening to.

 

[timbre4]

It was my go to demo disc when I was slinging A/V gear in 1990. Still has quite a cult following to this day.


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[rustyandi]

What has been the trouble
with the E/Train 5.1 releases?

 

[bmoura]

Is there trouble?
The 5.1 Multichannel SACDs from eTrain/Audio Fidelity (Homecoming, Winelight, New York Voices) work fine here with the Oppo 105 and EMM Meitner CDSD/DAC6e SACD players.

 

[rtbluray]

Is there trouble?
The 5.1 Multichannel SACDs from eTrain/Audio Fidelity (Homecoming, Winelight, New York Voices) work fine here with the Oppo 105 and EMM Meitner CDSD/DAC6e SACD players.

I think he might mean, why aren't there more of these ETrain SACDs released, especially after the big announcement of the partnership last year.

 

[Q-Eight]

I would wager it's all corporate politics. Even though the mixes are complete and in the can; they're still subject to artist's approval, production crew approval, record company approval, then fees need to be discussed. Even if all the approval is met, the record company could ask for an outrageous fee if they think it'll be a hot seller. Or the artist asks for a phenomenal amount. AF may not be in a financial situation good enough to "bet the farm" on a single release. Can't blame them for playing it safe! While it looks like this series has done well so far, it's hardly mainstream.

Besides, who knows what the agreement between E/Train and AF really is? They may be contractually obligated to only release two mixes of his per year. From what I've read and learned about record company politics it's that they simply don't make sense and they generally always favour the corporation.

Mark Lindsay has been trying to get the last Raiders album released on and off for almost 40 years. He still has in his possession the master reels.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

I would wager it's all corporate politics. Even though the mixes are complete and in the can; they're still subject to artist's approval, production crew approval, record company approval, then fees need to be discussed. Even if all the approval is met, the record company could ask for an outrageous fee if they think it'll be a hot seller. Or the artist asks for a phenomenal amount. AF may not be in a financial situation good enough to "bet the farm" on a single release. Can't blame them for playing it safe! While it looks like this series has done well so far, it's hardly mainstream.

Besides, who knows what the agreement between E/Train and AF really is? They may be contractually obligated to only release two mixes of his per year. From what I've read and learned about record company politics it's that they simply don't make sense and they generally always favour the corporation.

Mark Lindsay has been trying to get the last Raiders album released on and off for almost 40 years. He still has in his possession the master reels.

I certainly wouldn't argue the point about "politics" being involved in the music business...but as far as artists approval...that doesn't mean very much if anything in most cases...the rights holder can do what they want despite objections from the artist or other involved parties...I think most of the "hold up" is due to the complete misreading of the marketplace by the companies that could make these happen...if they thought they could make enough money they would do it in a heartbeat...just look at Universal...they have enough resources but don't have the expertise or market awareness...they put out some flawed surround titles and when they flopped they used that as evidence that the market won't support these type of releases..

 

[bmoura]

I would wager it's all corporate politics.

It varies by album and artist. In some cases, the artist/band has put a block on any reissues of their albums, regardless of what the record label says.
In other cases, the requested royalty and advance for a reissue is too high for a reissue to be profitable.

Those cases aren't "corporate politics" in my view.

 

[bmoura]

I would wager it's all corporate politics.

It varies by album and artist.

In some cases, the artist/band has put a block on any reissues of their albums, regardless of what the record label says.
In other cases, the requested royalty and advance for a reissue is too high for a reissue to be profitable.

Those cases aren't "corporate politics" in my view.

 

[bmoura]

I think he might mean, why aren't there more of these ETrain SACDs released, especially after the big announcement of the partnership last year.

The albums mixed by Elliot Scheiner in 5.1 are subject to the same issues as any other 5.1 album when a Multichannel SACD reissue is being discussed.
They need record label and artist approval, agreement on advances and royalty rates, tape quality, etc.

 

[rustyandi]

Sorry I meant about new releases no playing trouble
I want MORE

 

[ar surround]

It varies by album and artist.

In some cases, the artist/band has put a block on any reissues of their albums, regardless of what the record label says.
In other cases, the requested royalty and advance for a reissue is too high for a reissue to be profitable.

Those cases aren't "corporate politics" in my view.

It is interesting than an artist would block any reissues of their albums given that their target audience is aging and will be decreasing in numbers. Same thing with asking for royalties and advances that make a reissue unprofitable. Perhaps the top 10% of highly-successful acts will always maintain peoples' interests. But the potential value of most of these reissues from the remaining highly-successful acts will continue to decline as the years go by.

Also, I guess that a number of acts are interested in maintaining their works as historical artifacts. Many do not wish to listen to mediocre sounding historical artifacts with so many great sounding reissues out there. Kudos to King Crimson and Tull for reworking their catalogs into masterpieces that achieve what they originally intended, surpass the originals in sonic quality and also maintain the historical artifacts.

 

[timbre4]

My translation: We're not getting any younger so empty the vaults and let's attain all possible musical glory while we still can!


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[bmoura]

It is interesting than an artist would block any reissues of their albums given that their target audience is aging and will be decreasing in numbers. Same thing with asking for royalties and advances that make a reissue unprofitable. Perhaps the top 10% of highly-successful acts will always maintain peoples' interests. But the potential value of most of these reissues from the remaining highly-successful acts will continue to decline as the years go by.

Also, I guess that a number of acts are interested in maintaining their works as historical artifacts. Many do not wish to listen to mediocre sounding historical artifacts with so many great sounding reissues out there. Kudos to King Crimson and Tull for reworking their catalogs into masterpieces that achieve what they originally intended, surpass the originals in sonic quality and also maintain the historical artifacts.

In some cases the artist/band is happy with the current editions of the album on the market and they see no reason or need for a newer or upgraded version.

There's also the fact that an album reissue is not as lucrative as licensing just 1 song from an album for a movie or TV use.

I'm sure many remember when the Rolling Stones received $6 Million for licensing the song "Start Me Up" to Microsoft for the rollout of Windows 95 including a TV commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VPFKnBYOSI

The advances and royalties from an SACD, CD, Vinyl LP or Analog Reel Tape reissue/remaster pale in comparison to deals like that.

 

[ar surround]

In some cases the artist/band is happy with the current editions of the album on the market and they see no reason or need for a newer or upgraded version.

There's also the fact that an album reissue is not as lucrative as licensing just 1 song from an album for a movie or TV use.
I'm sure many remember when the Rolling Stones received $6 Million for licensing the song "Start Me Up" to Microsoft for the rollout of Windows 95 including a TV ad.
The advances and royalties from an SACD, CD, Vinyl LP or Analog Reel Tape reissue/remaster pale in comparison to deals like that.

The only thing that seems to advance faster than technology is marketing prowess.

 

[Simon A]

It is interesting than an artist would block any reissues of their albums given that their target audience is aging and will be decreasing in numbers.

In some cases the artist/band is happy with the current editions of the album on the market and they see no reason or need for a newer or upgraded version.

Let's also take into consideration the Van Morrison Factor where an artist has no say whatsoever concerning reissues of material they no longer have control/rights over. We were extremely fortunate to get the Moondance 5.1 Blu-ray because I seriously doubt that if Mister Morrison had been consulted, the answer would have been no..

Let's also take into consideration the Paul Simon Factor where Mister Simon gets up really early each morning just so that he can tell anyone who will listen that the Quad mixes of the S&G and of his albums will never be reissued.

Finally, let's take into consideration the Stevie Wonder Factor where Mister Wonder is the owner of the master tapes for his albums and will not let anyone have access to them for new masterings, new mixes, etc..., which is why every re-master released over the last 30 years (if not more) have been made from higher generation tapes.

I appreciate every once of sweat and effort that the fine folk at Audio Fidelity (and other such labels) that have to get through as many obstacles as Indiana Jones would just in order to get permission, rights, fix a royalty rate and other terms of lease and then try to get the proper tapes which they finally have to prepare (baked if necessary) and transfer. We haven't even touched artwork, liner notes, etc... To these crazy, beautiful people, I raise my gigantic mug of delicious Hot Cocoa and say BRA-VO!!

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Let's also take into consideration the Van Morrison Factor where an artist has no say whatsoever concerning reissues of material they no longer have control/rights over. We were extremely fortunate to get the Moondance 5.1 Blu-ray because I seriously doubt that if Mister Morrison had been consulted, the answer would have been no..

Let's also take into consideration the Paul Simon Factor where Mister Simon gets up really early each morning just so that he can tell anyone who will listen that the Quad mixes of the S&G and of his albums will never be reissued.

Finally, let's take into consideration the Stevie Wonder Factor where Mister Wonder is the owner of the master tapes for his albums and will not let anyone have access to them for new masterings, new mixes, etc..., which is why every re-master released over the last 30 years (if not more) have been made from higher generation tapes.

I appreciate every once of sweat and effort that the fine folk at Audio Fidelity (and other such labels) that have to get through as many obstacles as Indiana Jones would just in order to get permission, rights, fix a royalty rate and other terms of lease and then try to get the proper tapes which they finally have to prepare (baked if necessary) and transfer. We haven't even touched artwork, liner notes, etc... To these crazy, beautiful people, I raise my gigantic mug of delicious Hot Cocoa and say BRA-VO!!

Well said...although I agree with everything you said...when it comes to Moondance and Van The Man I have mixed emotions...I LOVE the surround release and I'm glad it was made...BUT...I also feel for Van...back in the day record companies had all the leverage over new artists..in order to get a record deal they had to sell their souls...which meant giving away their rights in many cases...and usually even the money was short...I had to laugh reading an article in Rolling Stone which portrayed Van as the evil party..why you ask...because the rights holder "reached out" to Van to get his blessing...this was more PR than anything else and a bitter Morrison told them to shove it...nobody really knows what deal Van was forced to take or what transpired behind the scenes..."back in the day"...but it must have been pretty crappy for him to still feel that way after all those years...

In regards to Audio Fidelity... we all should be thanking Marshall and his staff for the superb job he is doing...AF isn't one of the giants in the industry but is innovative enough to make Universal and MoFi look totally inept:worthy

 

[Simon A]

In regards to Audio Fidelity... we all should be thanking Marshall and his staff for the superb job he is doing...AF isn't one of the giants in the industry but is innovative enough to make Universal and MoFi look totally inept:worthy

Whilst I appreciate what Audio Fidelity is doing, I'm not so quick to throw the stone at the other companies involved with Hi-Res and Multichannel releases. I think Mobile Fidelity wants to stick to what they've been doing for years now and cater to that market as best as they can. I can appreciate this but it doesn't mean that I'm happy about the consequences. Whenever they are agreed a license for a title and release it in Stereo (or Mono if that,s how the album was released), this means that it highly reduces the chances that the same title will be released by another label in a Multichannel mix, if such a mix exists, like it does in so many titles that they've released over the last ten years.

As for throwing the stone at Universal and other majors, I won't waste my time as these companies are mostly run by bean counters who care very little about the music their vaults hold and the people who spend their hard earned (and easily spent) money buying this very music.

All in all, I'm just really appreciative of anyone left in this business who are actually crazy enough to dare going against the grain and release these sweet Quad mixes and more modern ones for the sake of us mad ones and other sentimental lunatics out there.