HiRez Poll Emerson Lake & Palmer - EMERSON LAKE AND PALMER [DVD-A/BDA]

[JonUrban]

Please post your thoughts and comments on this new release DVD-A from Sony (and Razor and Tie in the US) featuring the new 5.1 mix from Steven Wilson.
The same 2012 5.1 mix is also available on Blu-Ray as part of the 2017 "Fanfare" box set.


Original 2012 DVDA-V release:




2017 "Fanfare" Blu-Ray release:

 

[JonUrban]

Thanks to Sony, I had an opportunity to hear this 5.1 mix before most people, and I was given permission to tell you a little bit about what you'll all be hearing in a few days. So to start, I'm going to stick with the song most people know, "Lucky Man", and just comment on the 5.1 mix. BTW, you will all soil your undies when you hear this entire DVD-A!

You can see a visual representation of the two mixes in the jpeg above. The upper wav files are from the Rhino version which was a bonus track on the "Brain Salad Surgery" DVD-A, one of the very first DVD-A's released back in 2000. The lower wav files are from the Steven Wilson 5.1 mix from the new Sony release. I know you cannot tell much by looking at these pictures, but you can see right away that there is no brick walling, loudness war crap, or over processing.

Here's a brief run down on the 5.1 mix comparison.

First off, center channel on the Rhino version is strictly the bass guitar! Very strange, as if you do not have a big center speaker, you are in trouble with the lows! The lead vocal is spread around the two fronts as are the background vocals, which also can be heard in the rears. This is a most bizarre surround approach.

However, in Steven Wilson's FAR SUPERIOR mix )), the lead vocal is solo in the center as is the lead guitar solo, allowing you to hear them uncluttered and clear. The background vocals, although appearing in the fronts and backs for the first verse, move to the rears for the rest of the song. It creates a very large listening effect that might give you a chill as you listen. It's such a revelation compared to the Rhino version. Drums are in the fronts on both versions.

The new mix is a work of art, and you can tell that it was crafted by someone who actually knew and cared for both the material and the presentation. This is another example of how great Steven has become with regard to mixing other people's music into a surround sound presentation.

I will say more when I get more time, but I just want you guys to know, if you are on the fence about this release, ORDER IT. The support these two ELP releases gets from the marketplace will go a long way towards getting more of these, as well as releases from other artists. Unlike the Lynyrd Skynyrd DVD-A, this one is available to the entire world, so please, GO GET IT!

You are going to be VERY happy you did. Back with more in a few days.

 

[DKA]

View attachment 6773
However, in Steven Wilson's FAR SUPERIOR mix )), the lead vocal is solo in the center as is the lead guitar solo, allowing you to hear them uncluttered and clear. The background vocals, although appearing in the fronts and backs for the first verse, move to the rears for the rest of the song. It creates a very large listening effect that might give you a chill as you listen. It's such a revelation compared to the Rhino version. Drums are in the fronts on both versions.

No one utilizes a center channel better than Steve Wilson. He is simply the only one that understands that, by keeping that vocal centered and in the right place in the mix, you open up the mix and allow for more natural separation.

Even with the Skynyrd mix Scheiner did, which many of us love anyway, there's lead vocal spread out across all five channels. Why do mixers make the choice of reducing the amount of separation in a mix like when they have the multis? Even I'm able to produce a three-channel spread with a lead vocal when working from stereo a solid amount of the time.

Wilson's mixes separate the best because of this approach, but also still sound warm and without holes in the soundfield. This is why he is absolutely peerless in this industry.

Haven't ordered these yet, but I really look forward to them.

 

[JonUrban]

Here's what's on the discs, courtesy of the kind folks at Sony:

 

[rusinurbe]

View attachment 6773

Thanks to Sony, I had an opportunity to hear this 5.1 mix before most people, and I was given permission to tell you a little bit about what you'll all be hearing in a few days. So to start, I'm going to stick with the song most people know, "Lucky Man", and just comment on the 5.1 mix. BTW, you will all soil your undies when you hear this entire DVD-A!

You can see a visual representation of the two mixes in the jpeg above. The upper wav files are from the Rhino version which was a bonus track on the "Brain Salad Surgery" DVD-A, one of the very first DVD-A's released back in 2000. The lower wav files are from the Steven Wilson 5.1 mix from the new Sony release. I know you cannot tell much by looking at these pictures, but you can see right away that there is no brick walling, loudness war crap, or over processing.

Here's a brief run down on the 5.1 mix comparison.

First off, center channel on the Rhino version is strictly the bass guitar! Very strange, as if you do not have a big center speaker, you are in trouble with the lows! The lead vocal is spread around the two fronts as are the background vocals, which also can be heard in the rears. This is a most bizarre surround approach.

However, in Steven Wilson's FAR SUPERIOR mix )), the lead vocal is solo in the center as is the lead guitar solo, allowing you to hear them uncluttered and clear. The background vocals, although appearing in the fronts and backs for the first verse, move to the rears for the rest of the song. It creates a very large listening effect that might give you a chill as you listen. It's such a revelation compared to the Rhino version. Drums are in the fronts on both versions.

The new mix is a work of art, and you can tell that it was crafted by someone who actually knew and cared for both the material and the presentation. This is another example of how great Steven has become with regard to mixing other people's music into a surround sound presentation.

I will say more when I get more time, but I just want you guys to know, if you are on the fence about this release, ORDER IT. The support these two ELP releases gets from the marketplace will go a long way towards getting more of these, as well as releases from other artists. Unlike the Lynyrd Skynyrd DVD-A, this one is available to the entire world, so please, GO GET IT!

You are going to be VERY happy you did. Back with more in a few days.

Good to have the graphs and charts they certainly look promising, the proof as always is in the actual listeing what you actually hear and not what appears on a graph.
if you like it buy it if you dont then dont buy it if you bought it and dont like it sell it don't moan.

Some people on another forum will only buy and sell based on what a computer output says and not even listen to something first their loss

very much looking forward to getting these in the next day or so

 

[delarog]

Just got this one (and the other one) in the mail today.

The bad news, as we all knew well in advance, is that the 5.1 mix isn't the complete album. Two of the three Fates are missing (shouldn't the track be called The One Fate then?), as is Tank. Maybe someone should be told that upmixing, when the original multitracks are missing, is not a swear word. I know someone by the name of dka who can do miracles. But I digress.

So what do we have on the dvd-audio part?

First of all The Barbarian. Start and end is great, middle section always sounded to me like a Nice (as in The Nice) throwaway. The new surround mix is excellent, as one would expect.

Take A Pebble, although a bit too lengthy and meandering for my taste, is a great ballad with excellent piano. It has a very warm and encompassing sound in this mix with Greg's vocals in the middle of the room.

But then. Knife Edge. Wow! Blew me off my socks. And I wasn't even wearing any. All the instruments and Greg's voice erm... SURROUND you, for lack of a better word. Easily my favorite track of the two releases (so far). Mindblowing. Or at least, sockblowing.

The one remaining Fate sounds fab as well. Too bad about her two missing friends.

Rave Up isn't much more than a studio jam session, but it has a few great sections that sound like they could have been used in the Tarkus suite.

And finally the famous Lucky Man. The Man sounds much warmer than the BSS version. I seem to be hearing some guitar parts that I never noticed before, but that could be me. Mr Wilson's 5.1 mix is beyond belief.

All in all I give this dvd an 8 for content and a 10 for Steve-ness: that's a niner, folks!

 

[Chiburb]

A couple or three things:

I have most of Mr. Wilson's 5.1 work, and I'd be hard pressed to name a finer one than this. IMHO, this is much more aggressive than ES's mix of Southern Surroundings, but in a more coherent way. Nothing seems out of place or done for effect, but holy crap the sounds are everywhere.

I don't know the definition of "authoring", but if it has anything to do with the pristine sound of this disc, the clarity of each instrument, my hat is off to Mr. Wilkes too.

To hear Lucky Man (especially) in my car with 17 speakers, 7.1, didn't bring chills as Mr. Urban suggested, it brought a shit eating grin that almost broke my face. Who knew headphones and a joint were not needed to enjoy this album?

My thanks to all mentioned, and to members here too: without your/our support I doubt this would've happened.

Lastly, Burning Shed has never been better: England to Illinois in 5 days? You gotta be kidding me. Thanks Lisa!

 

[rusinurbe]

Lucky Man - wow just listening for the first time now. Thought it was good on the Waner DVDA but this is just exceptional.

 

[grill]

Excellent dynamics (DR13), surround sound and mix. To hear the 5.1 version of the ELP arrangement of Béla Bartók's masterpiece Allegro Barbaro was a great enjoyment. A definite 10 from me.

 

[grill]

Btw, there's a funny typo in the booklet. On one place Bartók's name is mistyped as Bártok. Bártok means 'a casing in a bar' in Hungarian language.

 

[Fourplay]

Hi All,

Received the discs Saturday 8/28 from the UK preorder. I am now on my second listen-through of the start of the disc. I listened to Lucky Man twice on both the Wilson mix and the older BSS mix. Here are my comments.

The clarity of the instrumentation is exceptional. They really did a fabulous job of preserving what was there, and for that matter hats off the the original engineer. Just heard a single distorted note in Take a Pebble, but nobody is perfect.

I enjoyed the posted waveforms as evidence that brick-walling was not employed in the new version. In listening to Lucky Man back to back against the BSS DVD-A I DID notice a difference in "loudness" when leaving the amp volume unchanged. I do not count this as a flaw! A good amp will have the power to amplify the full dynamic range of a good orchestral performance which naturally has a wide dynamic range. Dave Gilmour once discussed how he was surprised that more rock bands did not employ wide dynamics (such as the lead-in to Time on DSOTM), which for them was very deliberate. So I am in favor of preserving dynamics in music and letting the amp do the work.

Regarding the two versions of Lucky Man, I must first say that even though the posted waveform did show some potential brick walling on the BSS version, to me it is not sonically evident in the form of crunchy sounding loud passages. The biggest difference I heard (non-mix-wise) aside from the overall loudness of the track was more full/active LFE content on the BSS version. Without engaging the debate of the validity of this, I found it pleasing.

Now as to the surround mix of Lucky Man on both versions, I arrived at this: I like them both, and am glad for both of them. Like Wish You Were Here or DSOTM, I am a fan of this music, and having TWO surround mixes of the same material (providing neither sucks) is just a huge bonus to me. Each offers additional perspective on the underlying recording, much like a studio outtake of a raw track might do. I am all for it. So if a reader out there is deciding whether the BSS DVD-A is un-necessary based on the new release, I would vote that it is still worthy of seeking out if you love the material.

As for the rest of the album and the surround mix, I am one who is very much in favor of aggressive use of the rears, and such can be found on this mix. Also, where very fast panning around the soundstage is used, I do not mind it in ELP because I know they liked and used it in concert, so it is not an alien choice for their music.

Finally I really respect the choice to release the "alternative" version of the album ALONGSIDE the original version. This is the most honest and satisfying approach to the problem of missing masters. Oh how I wish that Steely Dan would make this choice for Aja! As I have said elsewhere, nothing you do to the surround mix or remastered version will eliminate the original version. The fact that they included it here for direct comparison is I think a great choice.

I have given this a 10: great material, great sonics, great mix! And I agree that the more of these they can sell, the more likely it is that we will get more releases like it. So please vote with your wallet and prove that the market is there.

Ken

 

[The Rang]

Scans added to post #1

Sure looks weird seeing "Sony Music" and "DVD Audio" on the same disc

 

[kap'n krunch]

Another no brainer, a solid 10.

As mentioned previously, the transfer sounds impeccable,
no degradation or distortion.

So much headroom that it's incredible , it definitely reflects that it was recorded properly without maxing out the signal. Crystal clear sound. Sounds better than most modern recordings.

The only thing is that I wouldn't have minded an upmix for the missing tracks , but that was probably a Greg Lake decision.

Steven's mix is full of tender loving care and it shows.

Re. the packaging- I am not a fan of these cardboard digipacks, but then I was never a big fan of jewel cases (now I am!)...and yes, mine arrived without any kind of shrinkwrap, a pity, cause I usually turn them into a protective sleeve.

But then we have :
1-DVD-As from Sony (can you see the pigs flying?)
2-a 2 cd and a DVDA/V package at a VERY decent price. Hope it does well so we can get more of them, especially "Trilogy".

Truly breathtaking....in this cesspool of a world, at least there are some things that I look forward to...SURROUND DVD-As (even DVD-Vs) FROM MY FAVORITE ARTISTS!!!!

Great job , Neil...you da' man!

 

[JohnA]

Gave it an 8.
Would have been a 9 if the surround layer had an upmix of the missing tracks. Much better than gaps and replacing by disjoined extras (in my opinion)
Take a pebble sounds glorious!

 

[tarkusnj]

Gave it an 8.
Would have been a 9 if the surround layer had an upmix of the missing tracks. Much better than gaps and replacing by disjoined extras (in my opinion)
Take a pebble sounds glorious!

That was done with the Devils Triangle on King Crimson's In The Wake Of Poseidon and should have been done here. I believe it was a budget thing since it involved Sony.

 

[sukothai]

Yeah, I was put off at first by the missing tracks, but got over it quickly. A 10 from me.

 

[rtbluray]

At this rate, this ELP title will become the 2nd highest rated SW remix (Aqualung being #1)

 

[Spencer1812]

Knife-Edge in Hi-Rez Surround is simply Jaw Dropping...

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Awesome surround mix. However....looking at the mix itself....a bit.....flat.... Seems to be lacking some presence. The BSS dvd-a shakes the room. When I put on Lucky Man on the BSS disc, you feel it. With this disc....I'm just not feeling it. The BSS disc is my go to demo of dvd-a. This disc.....not so much. I'm a bit disappointed, but that's mostly because my expectations were so high for this.

I may try extracting this and see if I can fix the mastering with some EQ. I'm all for less is more and keeping true to the original tape, but at the end of the day, you go for what really brings out the sound on the tape. Studios aren't filled with racks of equipment for nothing, the tools are there to bring out what's on the tape to make it shine. And I don't know if it was in the mix of the mastering, but it just isn't there on this disc. That said, still absolutely worth getting, and a very enjoyable listen.

 

[sukothai]

With this disc....I'm just not feeling it.

I peeked at your profile to see what kind of system you have, but didn't find the info I was looking for. The new disk absolutely rocks my room (and car) so I'm not sure why we are having different results. I did create a new disk without the LFE channel for 5.0; so my system can manage the bass as it chooses. Maybe that's the difference. I've got full range speakers in the family room and sub/sat in my office with the speaker sizes adjusted appropriately at the receiver. All my systems sound great with the new mix - I would even say I prefer it over the BSS disc.

- Ben