Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)
We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)
Here's an Audition view of the spectra of both Lucky Men just between 0 and 200 Hz -- and no attempt at level matching . Wilson's on top, Kellogg's on bottom. The 'brighter' the color (eg ranging from black to deep violet though reds to bright yellow) the more energy there is.
I guess it depends on your socks.
So I guess I need a lesson on what to listen for.
Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)
We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)
Here's an Audition view of the spectra of both Lucky Men just between 0 and 200 Hz -- and no attempt at level matching . Wilson's on top, Kellogg's on bottom. The 'brighter' the color (eg ranging from black to deep violet though reds to bright yellow) the more energy there is.
(Speed and time correction aside)
Interesting and thanks for the spectrum jpg. I agree about listening to the solo bass guitar, I thought it was facinating, although a bit strange for a channel placement. If you really wanted to get tricky, you could extract that channel and merge it into the SW mix for some seriously clean bass in the channel(s) of your choice!
At any rate, there is nothing wrong with either mix. I prefer the new one mostly because of the vocal isolation and clarity. That's all. Nothing special. When I crank it in the car, it sounds terrific!
I've got a sneaking suspicion most (if not all) of the contributors to this thread have already heard the DVD-A/SACD Kellogg 5.1 of BSS but I agree if they haven't they should check it out, it's wonderful!
