Enoch Light - what's what and different mixes

[ArmyOfQuad]

Ok, time to start a thread on this topic and see what information can be compiled.

I discovered Enoch Light shortly after I started collecting quad stuff. One of my first Q8s was an Enoch Light - 4 channel stereo that I picked up pretty cheap, probably off of ebay, and when I started buying for SQ LPs I picked up the Project 3 SQ test record. And found the ping pong quad mixes, and fun use of synthesizers quite enjoyable. Spaced Out and Permissive Polyphonics are my all time favorite Enoch Light albums, both of which I have quad reels of.

I had long known Enoch Light released his quad albums on multiple formats on the Project 3 label. Generally, the SQ and CD4 ones are easy to identify, as they are typically marked on the label as such. But, when it comes to EV4 and QS, that's where the confusion starts. And I've not found a definitive way to determine if an Enoch Light LP is QS or EV4. And, I haven't really seen many with the sticker on the jacket to identify it as such. But, it's been suggested to me that QD means EV4, and if one is QS, it would indicate as such on the label. Is there anything to that? Does anyone have a Project 3 QS record that indicates such on the label? Or was the QD indication used for both EV4 and QS?

Anyways, as I started diving into EV4 materials, I made a rather interesting discovery. One of the 4 channel stereo samplers I picked up with a QD catalog number on the label, which includes Marakesh Express on it, has a definitely different mix on it from the permissive polyphonics quad reel, the 4 channel stereo Q8, and the Project 3 test record. This was the first I've discovered a different quad mix of an Enoch Light track, as far as I knew it was always the same mix across all the different formats. Which had me wondering.....what's on the Permissive Polyphonics EV4 LP?

So I kept watch on ebay, and picked up what I think is likely to be an EV4 copy of permissive polyphonics. It doesn't have a sticker on the cover indicating "processed via electrovoice stereo 4", but, it does have a sticker that says "this is the NEW stereo..." very much like the stickers that would also indicate electrovoice stereo 4, it certainly seems to indicate it comes from the earlier period where EV4 was the format. So I took a chance on it. And, the mix of Marakesh Express matches the same mix on the 4 channel stereo EV4 (or possibly QS) LP, that is, different from the mix I had always known on the reel, 4 channel stereo Q8, and Project 3 test record.

And what about the rest of the album? Was the whole album mixed to quad twice? Well, I'm recording it in run through the Surround Master as we speak, as I've already determined it does quite well with EV4.

But, I figured I should post about this, because, I've not seen anything about this, I don't think anyone has noticed multiple Enoch Light quad mixes before. And on that 4 channel stereo LP, other mixes also didn't match the album, suggesting that perhaps there were many things mixed twice in quad.

I'll post more as I find out, but if anyone has anything else to add here, please do. I'd really like to know more about the QS records, if they had any indications on the label, and find out what's on the QS copy of Permissive Polyphonics.

 

[sjcorne]

I have the EV-4 and CD-4 LPs - they are indeed different mixes.
I remember reading something saying that those early EV-4 albums were "mixed to take advantage of the characteristics of the EV-4 encode/decode process", I think in "audio" magazine.

I'm not sure a QS version of Permissive Polyphonics exists in the US, but I have seen what are said to be QS versions on eBay from Australia. Not sure which mix they have...

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Very interesting, it's nice to see I'm not the only one to have made this observation. According to the quad discography, Permissive Polyphonics did get EV4 and QS release. But, I'm wondering about something....

It has been said that without a cover with the sticker on it, it's difficult to determine if a Project 3 LP with a QD catalog number is EV4 or QS. I've had one individual claim that if it's QS, it'll say so on the label, and that you should go by what's on the label, not the cover, as he's run into situations where the record and cover didn't match, such as finding a cd4 record in an SQ cover, or something obvious like that. However, in all my collecting, I've never come across a Project 3 LP with a QS designation on the label or in the catalog number, but I have found Project 3 LPs with a QS sticker on the cover, and a QD catalog number on the label. Which suggests that, there is no QS designation....unless someone can produce one.

I'm wondering if what happened was something like this...

Perhaps Enoch Light put out EV4 LPs with a QD catalog number. Everyone and their mother started putting out their own quad decoders, including Sansui with their QS decoders. The general thought at the time was these were compatible, including the belief that EV4 and QS were compatible. As EV4 started it's fade into obscurity, and QS became more known as a format, might it have made sense for Project 3 to take their EV4 albums, and slap a QS sticker on the cover? I wish I had contact with people that worked for Project 3, it seems there may be details that may be lost forever.

 

[MidiMagic]

For all practical purposes, EV-4 and QS recordings are compatible. The only differences in the actual audio are:

The front channels are encoded slightly wider in EV than they are on QS.
The back channels are encoded slightly narrower in EV than they are on QS.

You can compensate by moving your chair backward with EV records and forward for QS records.

Dynaquad records are also equally compatible. Use the EV char position.

The decoders are quite different from each other, but the records are very close to each other.

 

[MidiMagic]

More on this:

QS was encoded for equal separation all around - 3dB between adjacent channels
EV was encoded for 5 dB front separation, 3.3 dB side separation, 1.6 dB back separation
DQ was encoded for 6 dB front separation, 3 dB side separation, 1.6 dB back separation

Other than the encoding angles of separation, the systems behave identically.

 

[JonUrban]

The QD-XXXX LPs could be either. There was no distinction that I remember. In fact, I had never seen the rare "QS" sticker on a Project-3 LP, even into the '80s, until Nick Perugini sent me one with the sticker. (You can see all of the Project 3 stickers on the QQ Project 3 page)

That QQ page indicates what titles were available in what LP formats, but I don't honestly remember where I got that info. :violin

Anyway, way back in the '70s I thought I hear differences in Project-3 individual songs from different LPs. The many demo LPs had the same songs as some of the regular albums, and although the reels and Q8's were very discrete, the LPs were a function of the decoder you had at the time. I always thought the Project-3 CD-4 were exemplary but never was bowled over by the matrix LPs, but then again, the only decoders I had were shitty.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/P3OrderForm.htm

 

[vinylguy4]

Here is an SQ sticker I had on a project 3 record(not like the other SQ sticker).

 

[JonUrban]

Here's another Project-3 SQ sticker - one of the last:

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

For me, this is still something of a mystery. The whole QS/EV-4 both using the QD catalog number makes me question the whole thing. What I'm really looking to do is get my hands on a marked EV-4 and QS copy of the same Project 3 album, and determine if there really are 2 distinct different versions, that is, 2 different encodings. Or if they just considered them interchangeable formats (please note I am not stating they are interchangeable or the same, just that I wonder if Project 3 may have considered that). Or, if there actually were both QS and EV4 marked versions of the same album, because to be honest, I've yet to see that.

So far, I've managed to acquire copies of Tony Mottola - Warm Wild & Wonderful, and Tony Mottola - Roma Oggi with QS stickers.
I've managed to acquire Enoch Light and the Brass Menagerie with Electro-Voice Stereo 4 sticker.

I've also acquired QD copies of Spaced Out and Permissive Polyphonics....but that kind of does me little good since nothing states EV4 or QS on them. They just have stickers about the new 4 channel stereo on them. Not sure what exactly that means, I figure if they don't go to the trouble of specifying a format, it would suggest a mentality that specification of format was unnecessary. Perhaps that mean ev4 or generic matrix. But, that's assuming, which does me little good.


I've not been watching this closely for long. And I know we have that list that specifies these albums all came out in both EV4 and QS versions. But I have to ask....has anyone ever actually seen 2 copies of the same project 3 album with EV4 and QS? I've seen Permissive Polyphonics marked as EV4, but I can't say I've ever seen it marked QS. Although QS stickers are rare. But, then again, I can't say that I've seen either of the Tony Mottola albums I have QS versions of with markings that specifically indicate EV4.


The search continues...

 

[Circular Vibes]

I've also acquired QD copies of Spaced Out and Permissive Polyphonics....but that kind of does me little good since nothing states EV4 or QS on them. They just have stickers about the new 4 channel stereo on them. Not sure what exactly that means, I figure if they don't go to the trouble of specifying a format, it would suggest a mentality that specification of format was unnecessary. Perhaps that mean ev4 or generic matrix. But, that's assuming, which does me little good.

The search continues...

I have 3 copies of Permissive Polyphonics. They all state Stereo4 on the jacket, not on a sticker. They were sold by Realistic and are marked as such on the jackets. One has the 4 channel sticker on it as well. The matrix markings match on all 3 copies. One set of labels has a different catalogue number with the original number below in brackets, rather than the record number with matrix below. All three were pressed by Total sound, inc. One seems to be like Dynaflex, the other 2 are a bit stiffer. I have to assume that as EV4/Stereo4 was the first commercially available format that was pushed before SQ/QS that there was no need/thought for stating such. Also, Dynaquad was so similar and both had poor separation that it really didn't matter. Also, Radio Shack chose to push EV4 until SQ was the inevitable matrix winner in the US and Canada. I suspect they decided that anything they weren't pushing didn't matter or exist in their stores.

I will try to post pictures if I can hold my phone still enough, but that won't be until tomorrow. AoQ, you are welcome to a copy for the cost of postage if it interests you.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Just acquired a large number of Project 3 LPs.
For quite a few, I am not able to determine the format.
Frustrating! Or intriguing.

 

[sjcorne]

Some more interesting discussion below:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/enoch-light-format.28647/#post-502999It's the generic "QD" marking that's difficult to identify, as it can mean either EV-4 or QS. The QS-encoded LPs decode remarkably well through the Surround Master, while EV-4 LPs usually have far less left-to-right seperation in the rear channels.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Some more interesting discussion below:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/enoch-light-format.28647/#post-502999It's the generic "QD" marking that's difficult to identify, as it can mean either EV-4 or QS. The QS-encoded LPs decode remarkably well through the Surround Master, while EV-4 LPs usually have far less left-to-right seperation in the rear channels.

I have CD-4 copies with the QD cat number...

 

[sjcorne]

I have CD-4 copies with the QD cat number...

It’s possible there was a “quadradisc” sticker on the jacket that fell off.

 

[edisonbaggins]

It’s possible there was a “quadradisc” sticker on the jacket that fell off.

Some of my Enoch Light records have a CD-4 sticker.
Not sure I've seen quadradisc on anything.

 

[Mark Anderson]

The runout groove numbers should identify which format

 

[edisonbaggins]

What about their "Total Sound Stereo"?
Some cat #'s end in SD.
Just stereo? Some kind of ambisonics?

 

[sjcorne]

"SD" is usually just stereo, unless a sticker or other marking denotes otherwise.

 

[edisonbaggins]

"SD" is just stereo.

Super duper special stereo, according to the jacket!!!

 

[fizzywiggs41]

"SD" is just stereo.

Not in all cases.