Enoch Light - what's what and different mixes

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I blame Enoch and Project 3 for the downfall of quad LPs. Talk about confusing! o_O:SB

I don't! Nobody did more to promote quad than Enoch Light, all four major systems to boot! I have never believed that multiple systems killed Quad but rather just that the record companies and equipment manufactures gave up much too soon. Going single inventory quad regardless of system choice would have helped as well.

Regarding the EL quad releases. I wouldn't put any stock in the number on the jacket. Some early releases even use the stereo cover. The sticker will often say which format is used. If not present I wonder if sometimes the sticker was on the shrink?

CD-4 albums clearly state the format on the label with CD-4 after the QU number. The same goes for the SQ LP's, with SQ after the number. The questionable releases seem to be those that only state the QD number. I would look for the sticker on the cover in that case. I believe that those that just say something like "this is the new stereo" would most likely be EV-4. If QS the sticker should say so.

It was likely the belief at the time that EV and QS were fully compatible (compatible enough) and so required no differentiation via the release number.

I can't say for sure that there aren't exceptions to what I've just stated, but I would be surprised if there are. As for different mixes, I highly doubt that!
 
You're saying that, even though the records are labeled as Quad, they're actually stereo?
I have SD suffix copies that have Quad labeling...


Not all of them as you and I have both discovered. If it has a quad label on it or quadraphonic indication along with the SD you can bet it's an early Project 3 quad album and that would be EV-4 , their initial quad matrix.
 
Always go for what the vinyl indications are.

Most of the confusion surrounds the EV-4 and QS LPs, CD-4 are readily readable and CD-4 should/usually follows the number on the vinyl paper circle.
It was said by Steely Dave before but I'll repeat it ,in that SQ seems to be with most of the higher numbers of Project 3 albums ,so you can know that was their final quad matrix format, and final quad vinyl format.

And for such a small label they really committed to four channel ,which is an amazing quad accreditation. Something many other labels did not aspire to. Which makes them far more collectible for anyone interested.
 
I'm not sure if they remixed stuff for different systems, but it would seem somewhat unlikely (though not impossible, I suppose) to me given the expense involved for an independent label like Project 3. Given how different some SQ decodes sound compared to the discrete masters we've been lucky enough to hear the last few years, I'd attribute a lot of mix differences and inconsistencies to the quirks and shortcomings of matrix encoding/decoding systems before I'd assume that they'd remix albums from scratch.
I dunno about entire albums, but I'm fairly certain that a handful of individual songs ("Galloping Guitars" from Tony Mottola & The Quad Guitars and "Marrakesh Express" from Permissive Polyphonics are two that come to mind) were remixed for samplers such as the Popular Science Test Record. During "Galloping Guitars", there's a loud guitar solo in one of the front channels on the Quad Guitars album that's in a back corner on the Popular Science LP. I mentioned some of the differences between the various versions of "Marrakesh Express" here.
 
I dunno about entire albums, but I'm fairly certain that a handful of individual songs ("Galloping Guitars" from Tony Mottola & The Quad Guitars and "Marrakesh Express" from Permissive Polyphonics are two that come to mind) were remixed for samplers such as the Popular Science Test Record. During "Galloping Guitars", there's a loud guitar solo in one of the front channels on the Quad Guitars album that's in a back corner on the Popular Science LP. I mentioned some of the differences between the various versions of "Marrakesh Express" here.
That idea sounds more likely than the same album being mixed differently for each system. Just like the tracks on "The Best Of The Guess Who Volume 2" are different than the quad tracks on the individual albums.

The idea that "so called" QS releases might just be repackaged EV-4 sounds plausible.
 
I dunno about entire albums, but I'm fairly certain that a handful of individual songs ("Galloping Guitars" from Tony Mottola & The Quad Guitars and "Marrakesh Express" from Permissive Polyphonics are two that come to mind) were remixed for samplers such as the Popular Science Test Record. During "Galloping Guitars", there's a loud guitar solo in one of the front channels on the Quad Guitars album that's in a back corner on the Popular Science LP. I mentioned some of the differences between the various versions of "Marrakesh Express" here.

This compilation album was definitely remixed - Larry Keyes acted as the quad sound supervisor so perhaps the mixes were done with a thought towards maximizing separation for SQ (as seemed to be anything CBS quad engineers worked on) even though the record was released in multiple formats.

There was at least one other Project 3 various artists compilation LP (Serendipity - Modern Concepts of Great Classics, PR 5093 SQ) from 1975 that was fully remixed too, so maybe there were some instances where they felt like a new quad mix would provide cohesion to a bunch of tracks originally recorded and mixed over a number of years.

That idea sounds more likely than the same album being mixed differently for each system. Just like the tracks on "The Best Of The Guess Who Volume 2" are different than the quad tracks on the individual albums.

The idea that "so called" QS releases might just be repackaged EV-4 sounds plausible.

I don't think they were doing separate mixes for each system, they just did a did a discrete 4-channel mix and then re-encoding it as necessary for whatever matrix system.

Project 3 did all their mixing at a number of big-name studios in New York: Fine Recording Studios, Mercury Studios, and lastly A&R Studios which is where most of these quad mixes were done. Do we really think that they sat in those (presumably expensive) studios and remixed an album for EV-4, QS, SQ, and CD-4? What mix were they then using for their Q8 and quad reel releases?

There's a difference (in both time and money) between remixing a handful of tracks for a greatest hits or various artists comp and remixing entire albums wholesale - I think the most likely scenario is that the mixed once - to a discrete master - and then encoded to matrix as necessary. Maybe there are some isolated incidents where they remixed a whole album, but it seems really unlikely to me. It seems more possible that if there were albums that weren't compliant with a certain quad LP format, they just didn't release them in that format, like for example almost none of the albums before PR 5049 are available in SQ, and a number of albums smack dab in the middle of their CD-4 era aren't available in CD-4 including Phil Bodner's Brass Ring (PR 5067) Dick Jurgens There's That Band Again (PR 5071), and Dick Hyman Traditional Jazz Piano (PR 5080) and others.
 
I dunno about entire albums, but I'm fairly certain that a handful of individual songs ("Galloping Guitars" from Tony Mottola & The Quad Guitars and "Marrakesh Express" from Permissive Polyphonics are two that come to mind) were remixed for samplers such as the Popular Science Test Record. During "Galloping Guitars", there's a loud guitar solo in one of the front channels on the Quad Guitars album that's in a back corner on the Popular Science LP. I mentioned some of the differences between the various versions of "Marrakesh Express" here.
It had to be remixed. One was QS and the other was SQ. A mix optimized for one would sound bad on the other.
 
I can't find where in Billboard I read that The Welk Corp acquired all of Project 3 Records on Paramount ,later to become ABC/Paramount , 😑 Enoch Light was retained as Project 3's Director.
So I'm not certain what year they stopped with quad recording ,but if I had to guess I'd say late 75 or early 76.

Enoch Light , passed away in 1978 at age 71.(BB Aug 12 78 pg 06).
Sad of course, But what an amazing Quadraphonic Legacy he has left . And we're still discussing his quad recordings even today in the new millennial.😗
 
I can't find where in Billboard I read that The Welk Corp acquired all of Project 3 Records on Paramount ,later to become ABC/Paramount , 😑 Enoch Light was retained as Project 3's Director.
So I'm not certain what year they stopped with quad recording ,but if I had to guess I'd say late 75 or early 76.

Enoch Light , passed away in 1978 at age 71.(BB Aug 12 78 pg 06).
Sad of course, But what an amazing Quadraphonic Legacy he has left . And we're still discussing his quad recordings even today in the new millennial.😗

ABC/Paramount acquired Command Records, which was Light's label before Project 3, in 1959. They actually wanted the assets (masters etc.) of the label he'd started even before that, called Grand Award, which is why the deal was done.

Little did they know that Light had just finished recording the Persuasive Percussion album while the deal was being done, and shortly after it became a massive sensation - it was the first blockbuster stereo album, and ended up spending nearly 3 months at #1 in the Billboard chart and sold well over a million copies, making Light a star in the early '60s in the process.

The funny thing about it was that ABC-Paramount didn't want to release Persuasive Percussion at all - Light had to do a lot of arm twisting to get it released, and the reason that it was released on Command and not Grand Award is that Light created Command especially for the album so that if (or when) it failed, it wouldn't tarnish Grand Award's reputation. In fact, the opposite happened - Persuasive Percussion was so popular that Command became Light's premier label and he stopped putting out anything new on Grand Award shortly thereafter.

Light stayed as director (I think his official title was vice-president) of Command under ABC-Paramount until late 1965 or early 1966, and released a ton of very successful albums, under his own name, as well as producing a number of artists including Doc Severinsen and Dick Hyman, and all of the various "Command All-Stars" albums, of which Persuasive Percussion was the first. Command is also arguably the first "audiophile" label - they listed the equipment used on the album sleeves, and they made a big (huge) deal of the fact that their albums were recorded on 35mm film, which produced a superior sound quality in the days before 1" and 2" tape technology was really perfected. It's no wonder either, as all of Light's Command albums (and the early Project 3 albums) were engineered by C. Robert Fine, famous for his Mercury Living Presence classical recordings in the 1950s.

As I mentioned, Light left Command toward the end of 1965 because he wanted to start his own label - one he controlled and owned, and that's when he started Project 3. The name itself is a reference to the fact that the label itself was the third one he'd established. RCA courted him heavily - they wanted him to set up a label called RCA Enoch Light - but they wouldn't give him full control or ownership of his masters, so he ended up going into partnership with the Singer Corporation (yes, the sewing machine people) and started Project 3. Within a year or two he bought Singer out and gained complete control of the label making it truly independent.

Light's reputation as a sonic innovator and audiophile (not to mention Project 3 being one of the first labels to release quad material) was such that when ABC started releasing quad LPs in 1971, the reactivated Light's old Command label to do it, calling the series Command Quadraphonic and releasing a half-dozen old Command albums, including Doc Severinsen's Fever, Persuasive Percussion, and Light's A New Concept of Cole Porter Songs even though Light had been gone from the label for 5 years by that point.

Despite what it says on Wikipedia, Light didn't "retire from the industry completely in 1974" - he remained in charge of Project 3 right up until his death in 1978 and they continued releasing quad albums (albeit at a slower rate after about 1975) up until 1977.
 
ABC/Paramount acquired Command Records, which was Light's label before Project 3, in 1959. They actually wanted the assets (masters etc.) of the label he'd started even before that, called Grand Award, which is why the deal was done.

Little did they know that Light had just finished recording the Persuasive Percussion album while the deal was being done, and shortly after it became a massive sensation - it was the first blockbuster stereo album, and ended up spending nearly 3 months at #1 in the Billboard chart and sold well over a million copies, making Light a star in the early '60s in the process.

The funny thing about it was that ABC-Paramount didn't want to release Persuasive Percussion at all - Light had to do a lot of arm twisting to get it released, and the reason that it was released on Command and not Grand Award is that Light created Command especially for the album so that if (or when) it failed, it wouldn't tarnish Grand Award's reputation. In fact, the opposite happened - Persuasive Percussion was so popular that Command became Light's premier label and he stopped putting out anything new on Grand Award shortly thereafter.

Light stayed as director (I think his official title was vice-president) of Command under ABC-Paramount until late 1965 or early 1966, and released a ton of very successful albums, under his own name, as well as producing a number of artists including Doc Severinsen and Dick Hyman, and all of the various "Command All-Stars" albums, of which Persuasive Percussion was the first. Command is also arguably the first "audiophile" label - they listed the equipment used on the album sleeves, and they made a big (huge) deal of the fact that their albums were recorded on 35mm film, which produced a superior sound quality in the days before 1" and 2" tape technology was really perfected. It's no wonder either, as all of Light's Command albums (and the early Project 3 albums) were engineered by C. Robert Fine, famous for his Mercury Living Presence classical recordings in the 1950s.

As I mentioned, Light left Command toward the end of 1965 because he wanted to start his own label - one he controlled and owned, and that's when he started Project 3. The name itself is a reference to the fact that the label itself was the third one he'd established. RCA courted him heavily - they wanted him to set up a label called RCA Enoch Light - but they wouldn't give him full control or ownership of his masters, so he ended up going into partnership with the Singer Corporation (yes, the sewing machine people) and started Project 3. Within a year or two he bought Singer out and gained complete control of the label making it truly independent.

Light's reputation as a sonic innovator and audiophile (not to mention Project 3 being one of the first labels to release quad material) was such that when ABC started releasing quad LPs in 1971, the reactivated Light's old Command label to do it, calling the series Command Quadraphonic and releasing a half-dozen old Command albums, including Doc Severinsen's Fever, Persuasive Percussion, and Light's A New Concept of Cole Porter Songs even though Light had been gone from the label for 5 years by that point.

Despite what it says on Wikipedia, Light didn't "retire from the industry completely in 1974" - he remained in charge of Project 3 right up until his death in 1978 and they continued releasing quad albums (albeit at a slower rate after about 1975) up until 1977.
Wow! Great stuff. Thank you for this @steelydave
 
oh, probably 30+ years ago I (literally) inherited a couple of bankers boxes of quad LP's. There was a good number of Enoch Light records there that I never played. Well sampled a song or two at best. Why? Because I was not into old guy lounge music. But now that I am an old guy I have a new appreciation for them.

When I copied to my PC I too was baffled by what was what in quad format. Some things I could sort out on Discogs but I was too dumb too remember to check @Mark Anderson's fine library of info. The same record in multiple formats, QD, SD, and sometimes not even a hint. But this thread has been extremely helpful & interesting. Certainly I know I'm not the only confused by this topic.

And damn, wheter it's Tony Mottola or Enoch Light himself, these really sound incredibly good on the Surround Master!
 
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Thanks Sonik, I sometimes wonder if sharing 40 years of work has helped anyone, glad it did in this case. The number of Project 3 releases in different formats can be mind numbing
Don't ever doubt the value of your efforts Mr. Anderson. The knowledge that you share, and indeed @steelydave also, is a contribution beyond words for this forum.
 
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