Honda 5.1 Frankenstein 2023

[mandrix]

Tim I came to the thread late, and sort of got tired of reading a few posts back.
Did you ever get your HDMI > Analog extractor working?
I have a Monoprice Blackbird that absolutely will output 5.1 channels.
Of course the signal output through the RCA jacks is intended for the level expected into mch analog inputs on an AVR as expected.
HDMI from pc to main AVR / DP to HDMI adapter cable to the Blackbird then on to the second AVR which has analog inputs.

I used it when I had my Frankenstein 2 AVR 7.1.4 Atmos setup using ASIO4ALL in Windows before I bought my current AVR.

FWIW. Happy listening!

Edited to correct spelling of ASIO4ALL

 

[timbre4]

UPDATE:
Came out to the Civic with the laptop 'o' FLACs for a Thursday evening cruise and my battery was DEAD. I hadn't started the car in a few days; starting it nearly every day masked the fact that I had a wiring issue under the dash, well before the kill switch in the trunk for the amps. It's time to deal with this wiring once and for all. (without killing an entire weekend)

I have changed the 4 channel (now 3) Advent (Jensen) mains amp to now focus on driving L/C/R up front. The 2 channel Jensen that was previously for center is now going to drive the LR/RR rear pair. A third Jensen amp now driving one subwoofer will be retained for now. This work in the trunk I should finish today, need to find a handy place up the kill switch. NOTE: It's really heavy duty to handle amperage; if I can get the remote turn on wire to work properly, I can go to something lighter and put a toggle switch in a blank spot on the lower dash.

The work under the dash is going to take longer for testing until it all works as intended. Looking into the future, I think about the PIE input switches (pictured in a previous post) to juggle the outputs of the Pioneer AVH-P7600 DVD-A player and the laptop Foobar2000 surround FLACs. I'm leery since I cannot find a single bit of information or wiring diagrams for these 2ch/4ch units. Maybe trial and error later on but not this weekend. I just want me some mobile FLACs listening with the windows down.

I don't need automatic switching (inputs / power, etc.) so TWO of these units caught my eye today to manage the audio switching in a simpler way:

EDIT: Switch boxes ordered! Getting a pair for $22 on Amazon.

 

[mandrix]

You da man. I would not know where to even start doing all that in a car.
I haven't even changed out a head unit in 30 years.

 

[timbre4]

You da man. I would not know where to even start doing all that in a car.
I haven't even changed out a head unit in 30 years.

I must admit I'm a bit sore today from twisting around in the trunk and under the center console! I would never have done even a couple years ago; my will to follow through to do things is stronger now in this post treatment period. (turning 65 and loud clock ticking may be an influence as well)

Good news - I am getting closer on solving the power situation, having figured out the key switched positive and constant positive. The amps now turn off with the remote turn on/off lead wire as intended. Not sure if I'm out of the woods yet.

The playback yesterday (45 min drive) was very good. I need to switch out some tunes I've already tired of and add tunes from albums I've never played! That's the point of this; much like the random iPad jukebox experience. Who was that? I can't wait to find out. I frequently find myself unsure what to listen to and sometimes go without choosing anything at all. The random playback is a form of deferred determination - that I am going to hear this eventually - and I also love the surprise aspect and wicked segues between totally different artists.

In terms of sound, the center channel was a little soft in volume, depending on the album mix. When a Doors 5.1 track played early on I thought the center channel was swimming against the stream. 50/50 chance it was going to be out of phase. I didn't want to dig into the amps in the trunk, so I pulled over and grabbed the CSW center speaker (fits in dash facing up to windshield like the Acura TL does) and reversed the leads. That's better!

The drawback to the laptop + ASUS USB box is no individual channel levels. Now I wonder if there is some channel output level adjustments in Foobar2000? I have the ASUS master volume handy but that's about it. The only amp that has an output level trim is the Jensen A1000 driving the rears. The rears seemed kind of shy so I pulled over again and boosted them a bit. Even better!

In case you're wondering why that nice Proton 2 channel amp was not deployed, it's simply louder than the other amps. Until I can gain control of output levels driving amps, it just wouldn't work. Ideally I'd have both Proton DPD 2 channel amps to drive the 4 mains, a Sony Xplode amp for the subwoofer and something for the center channel. This would be four amps as Proton never made a 4 channel amp with DPD (dynamic power on demand). Yikes.

Why does my system seem to sound BETTER with FLACs than DVD-A discs? Is the difference the D/A converters in the Asus box that much better? The Pioneer AVH-P7600 retailed for $2200 and definitely has top notch D/A converters but the Asus Xonar U5 box is 15 years newer, perhaps that's it. Then a new theory struck me; what if its' just the fact that I'm hearing the UNFILTERED channels without any of the EQ or other settings I told myself are necessary what I was using the head unit? Has the straight line signal path through the ASUS box shown me what was there the whole time?!? That's something to ponder!

I think I'll load up some Penteo album upmixes to decide if any are worthy yet, using this platform.

 

[timbre4]

Monday Update:

The two little input switcher boxes arrived early. When I first saw them they were $20 each and I was happy. Thanks to Amazon pointing out another seller had them for $10 each and I was even happier. (made sure they were identical)

As for adjusting the volume level of the rears, I remembered something I’ve had in the Civic behind the passenger seat. Meet the dual amp fader I bought years ago for adjusting level on the Proton amp in the trunk. I’ll only use one side (null to full). I’ll keep it a little high for the weaker surrounds and dial it back as needed when a strong mix is playing.

Need to check the random playback diary soon. 500 tunes now.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

The drawback to the laptop + ASUS USB box is no individual channel levels. Now I wonder if there is some channel output level adjustments in Foobar2000? I have the ASUS master volume handy but that's about it. The only amp that has an output level trim is the Jensen A1000 driving the rears. The rears seemed kind of shy so I pulled over again and boosted them a bit. Even better!

Tim, got to admit, the level of gear and software integration you're working with there is way above my understanding. So not sure this will help any, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway, if you're working under Windows?

On my little NUC playing through Foobar2000 I sometimes gets a weird thing happen that the Audio software will drop a channel out occasionally, and I'll have to go in and pop it back up again (a ghost in the machine thing.)

Since I'm not aware of any individual level adjustments in Foobar2000 (could be something available IDK) maybe you could keep the Windows Balance adjustment window open to get to quickly, see the screenshots below:

Right click the Speaker icon in the tray-
Sound-> Playback (Tab)-> Speaker (active)-> Properites (Button)-> Levels (Tab)-> Speaker (Balance Button) & Balance

Apologies if this is not pertinent to your case!

 

[timbre4]

On my little NUC playing through Foobar2000 I sometimes gets a weird thing happen that the Audio software will drop a channel out occasionally, and I'll have to go in and pop it back up again (a ghost in the machine thing.)

Since I'm not aware of any individual level adjustments in Foobar2000 (could be something available IDK) maybe you could keep the Windows Balance adjustment window open to get to quickly, see the screenshots below:

Right click the Speaker icon in the tray-
Sound-> Playback (Tab)-> Speaker (active)-> Properites (Button)-> Levels (Tab)-> Speaker (Balance Button) & Balance

Thanks I'll check that out; has to be done while sitting in the car so the USB box will present itself as an output option.

 

[par4ken]

In terms of sound, the center channel was a little soft in volume, depending on the album mix. When a Doors 5.1 track played early on I thought the center channel was swimming against the stream. 50/50 chance it was going to be out of phase. I didn't want to dig into the amps in the trunk, so I pulled over and grabbed the CSW center speaker (fits in dash facing up to windshield like the Acura TL does) and reversed the leads. That's better!

That is why years ago I couldn't downmix Doors LA Woman DVD-Audio from 5.1 to quad! With the channels summed the vocals cancelled! I never would have thought! I was thinking that the disc was authored in some way to disallow downmixing. I don't recall ever having that problem with any other disc. Mystery solved!

 

[timbre4]

Since I'm not aware of any individual level adjustments in Foobar2000 (could be something available IDK) maybe you could keep the Windows Balance adjustment window open to get to quickly, see the screenshots below:

Right click the Speaker icon in the tray-
Sound-> Playback (Tab)-> Speaker (active)-> Properties (Button)-> Levels (Tab)-> Speaker (Balance Button) & Balance

View attachment 92640

Thanks much for the tip to check this! it most certainly applies to the ASUS USB interface box. It took a little time to figure out based on this sequence:

1. When I did drill down to Balance button and saw the 6 sliders, only LF / RF sliders made any difference. I could move the others but no volume change.
2. The Asus control panel for the box didn't like what I was doing and started moving the faders by itself getting louder until I grabbed the master volume and yanked it down. Then announced it was "shutting down because no applicable device was connected". Yikes.
3. I unplugged the USB cable and then plugged it in again to reintroduce the Asus box to the laptop.
4. I returned to Sound and drilled down to Speaker > Properties and noticed something before I clicked on Balance. There was a checkbox for "Allow this device to have exclusive control of settings". (or similar; forgot to take screenshot while in the car)
5. I unchecked the box and THEN clicked on Balance and I could freely move all of the sliders and hear the difference in channel volumes as I moved them. So I gave the center channel a nudge and kept the level for the rears a little higher.
6. I re-checked the Allow this device to have exclusive control of settings box and the settings seemed to stick. When I check it today I'll know for sure.

 

[mandrix]

Tim I looked through all the Foobar components but could not find anything for individual channel gain.
One component I notice allowed VST 2.x/3.x to be used with Foobar. Now I have no idea what VST would help you, all I'm aware of offhand are surround panners.
If individual channel gain is an absolute must and you can't find another player with those types of controls, you could setup Plogue Bidule with gain controls.
But you would be limited to selecting one song at a time, which would suck if you're driving.

On the "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" setting in the Windows Sound applet.
Nominally that should mean it prevents any other sound applications from interfering with the first sound app loaded.
But some times it's a crap shoot with a Frankenstein system with more than one sound device in use and becomes more try it and see. I had to fiddle with it some when I had my two-AVR Atmos setup using ASIO4ALL to link two devices together.

So probably no real help to you, but I just spent a little time looking around for something to add to Foobar.

 

[timbre4]

Tim I looked through all the Foobar components but could not find anything for individual channel gain.
But you would be limited to selecting one song at a time, which would suck if you're driving.
So probably no real help to you, but I just spent a little time looking around for something to add to Foobar.

Thanks, I do appreciate that effort. As it turns out, WINDOWS Sound > Device >Properties > Balance has done the trick for general system starting point. I need to minimize /eliminate having to fiddle with the laptop at all while driving. If I knew code, I could figure out how to make my USB remote talk to Foobar.

To manage the typical variance in rear channel volumes, the little fader box above is the simplest answer so going with that for now. It's evolution every day.

 

[timbre4]

Too busy yesterday for an update! Short test run with the switchboxes in place. Brace yourselves for the wiring below...
First the 5.1 FLAC random playlist:

Djabe & Steve Hackett - Back To Sardinia (1st time heard; that's the point of all this)
Alice Cooper - Hello Hurray (DVD-A version too much digital reverb)
Gentle Giant - River (so active I wasn't sure if I had Fronts/Rears correct)
Genesis - Cinema Show (Live 1973 wow!)
Be Bop Deluxe - Blue As a Jewel (sounded like stereo; fronts only?)

Okay now the gear change details:
1. The car starts #1 goal no battery drain
2. I managed to get the pair of switchboxes hooked up
3. I hot swapped from FM radio (Pioneer) to laptop Foobar flawlessly
4. Played the tunes above and came back
5. Before I shut off the car I switched back from laptop to FM radio pretty as you please

Observations
Switchboxes always mean more cables. I make old man noises when I'm trying to find a box of cables "I know I had before we moved everything to put up a new building". Happens at least once a week and then I wonder if it went to Goodwill one day? So I had to scrounge up some RCA cables so I could move the switchboxes off the floor to behind the seats. But alas the amp cables come out at the center console so I need longer cables there too! Shrug; order cables.

Near future
This existing config will entertain me just fine for a while. Need to work out remote control for pause / skipping

Long Term
Move the breakout box crammed behind head unit (that's why so much wires) moved to under/behind the passenger seat (as they intended)
Think about new amp cables that would terminate there instead of under the dash
Sort out amplifiers situation
Hide all the wiring!
I like the Pioneer AVH-P7800 unit (in 4Runner) better than the AVH-P7600 here. I bought a 7800 head unit that works for like $20; but if you don't have the processor box to go with it, you've got nothing. Someday

 

[mandrix]

Ah, what a painful undertaking. I probably would have to take a beverage break too often when confronted with all those wires.
But I hear you.
Today I had to take the start/restart switches out of my pc to change out the old USB ports on the switchplate, to install a dual USB 3.1 and USB C ports in their place.
Which wires go where on these switches? I've done this stuff for a few decades and yet my mind suddenly becomes paralyzed with indecision.
But we piss our way through it, CRS be damned. And yes, uttering old man noises, some not at all suitable for family.

 

[timbre4]

Exactly, you get it!

 

[timbre4]

Saturday Recap

I'm actually typing this on the laptop used for Frankenstein. Once thought to be toast, it's working pretty good. This saves me from copying playback data to flash drive and moving it to PC.

Thanks again to @J. PUPSTER for the Windows Sound > Balance adjustment panel. I now keep this minimized to make spot adjustments midway through my evening drives. The dual amp balancer did not work as a fader for the center channel. Instead of fading null (0) to full, it was full-2-full? I think the center can have a strong average setting and left alone. I will try it again as the fader to adjust the rears. All I know is that it sounds more amazing every time I go out with minor adjustments.

Beautiful weather and a nice random playlist are really fun. To some, the abrupt changes in genre or style of music is perhaps a jarring experience. I live for this! Over the years I have tried a number of things to get closer to experiencing more music in my collection. This included iTunes library (50K songs), multiple disc changers that mainly collected dust, HDD loaded with FLACs got me closer. Still my favorite delivery mechanism was the iTunes random jukebox in the pool or on the airplane trips.

The Frankenstein FLAC machine is the mobile surround version of that delivery style. There are selected favorites for sure but what puts this over the top is the discovery process that puts new music in front of me (all around me actually). Wow! Who was that? Then I post the list and see what I've been missing out on for years.

To increase the random access factor, I'm going thru HDD surround folders by A Artists, B Artists and so on. I'm grabbing usually the first track (unless 15 min long) from unheard albums. I only finished browsing C Artists before I went out last evening with 530 tracks. I think I need to get to about 1000 tracks to be about what the iTunes jukebox has in it. Today I will start with D Artists.

Nothing too obscure this time, fun nonetheless. Think about each title and then jump to next one.

Gavin Harrison - Sound Of Muzak / So Called Friend
Be‐Bop Deluxe - Panic in the World (5.1 surround mix)
Rick Wakeman & The English Rock Ensemble - Ascraeus Mons
Steve Hackett - Spectral Mornings
Be Bop Deluxe - Jean Cocteau
David Bowie - New Killer Star
Genesis - [Live 1973] Firth of Fifth (5.1 mix)
George Benson & Al Jarreau - Breezin'
Steve Hackett - Narnia (John Perry vocal version)
Billy Joel - The Stranger (Multi-Channel)
Gentle Giant - Advent of Panurge

Last thing - I'd ripped Tears For Fears - The Hurting to get the 5.1 mix and place it on the HDD in a separate folder. After a less than satisfactory listen of key tracks in Atmos on the living room 5.1.2 system, I wanted to really get inside the mix. I LOVE this SW mix 10 times more than I did with the system in the house.

I feel so strongly about the Frankenstein's clarity on surround mix delivery as it sits right now, that I want to try everything on it and likely revise my comments and scores! Well some of them anyways. Still amazed this project has gone from a pipe dream to an essential experience in my life now.

Side project: documenting my unorthodox approach to rear channel speakers in vehicles.

 

[timbre4]

UPDATE: June 25th

Was out of town for work this past week; took the Acura TL so lived off some DVD-As on the round trip. ELS system output is very low on the LF speaker most but not all the time with 5.1 discs. This has been going on for months - will save for another thread.

Returning to the 1988 Honda Civic LX (first year for 1.5 TBI, PW PDL, ASC sunroof added by dealer) [cathouse red seat covers was as close as I could get!]

1. It's so sweet to be gone for several days and come back to this car starting right up! Guess I have the power figured out good now.
2. New cables I ordered arrived in my absence. These help to move the switch boxes off the front floor to somewhere between the seats after parking brake.
3. Still adding new song files - close to 600 now; need to take some of my own mixes (5.1 personal music or Penteo files) out for a spin this summer.

Here is how I'm setup now; cables applied, switchboxes moved off floor. laptop on floor out of the sun (need remote control!). Still lots of cables and not going to improve unless/until I move the processor box to be under passenger seat instead of crammed behind Pioneer head unit. Now the pair of switchboxes (1 = FM / DVD-A, 2 = Laptop Foobar FLACs) are in easy reach yet out of the way. Pioneer DVD-A sounding pretty good; A/B compare soon.

Waiting for the sun to go down a bit before I go on cruise.

 

[timbre4]

I gotta say during the week I was gone, I started to wonder if I was crazy the Frankenstein system was that good, I confirmed it today. It was smashing and I went longer than intended . It was that good! According to the polygraph for 58 miles of mobile consumption, it went something (exactly) like this:

16 HP - Clogger
Jeff Beck - She's A Woman
Foreigner - Starrider
Genesis - Burning Rope
Queensrÿche - Silent Lucidity
Caravan - Golf Girl
Quatermass - Black Sheep of the Family
ELP - Toccata
Elton John - Captain Fantastic And The Brown Dirt Cowboy
King Crimson - Three of a Perfect Pair
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers - Green Onions (5.1 mix)
Keb’ Mo’ - Just Like You
Pink Floyd - One Of These Days (Live 1994)
Jethro Tull - Nothing to Say
Brimstone Butterfly - Normality Killed the Cat
Jerry Goldsmith / London Symphony Orchestra - Medley of Television Themes:

Half of these tunes were not previously heard by me! Success. You are free to guess which ones.
Last word: today was a super fun drive! Cambridge Soundworks made a nice component set once upon a time - My front mains; CSW Ensemble III for center (aimed up like Acura). Rears? I got tired of the back shelf Polk Audio 6.5" rattle no matter what I rolled off. So I have CSW Indoor/Outdoor speakers behind me. Today everything shined real nice. EDIT: 12" sub in truck box right behind the driver seat. One more tactile expression enjoyed.

 

[barfle]

Just a thought, and I know you have as much on your plate as I do, but have you considered replacing the laptop (which has to be distracting) with a raspberry pi? I’ve wanted to play with those for a decade, but it never rose to the top of the list, so I don’t really know that one could handle all your decoding needs, but it seems like it might make the passenger seat more useable.

 

[timbre4]

Just a thought, and I know you have as much on your plate as I do, but have you considered replacing the laptop (which has to be distracting) with a raspberry pi? I’ve wanted to play with those for a decade, but it never rose to the top of the list, so I don’t really know that one could handle all your decoding needs, but it seems like it might make the passenger seat more useable.

Thanks for the input.
The passenger seat has low or no priority, I can simply close the laptop lid and and have room, but this is just me roaming around on the backroads alone.

Decoding is handles by Fubar2000. I'm not sure that such a move would buy me anything really; I'd still need a screen and a keyboard in order to operate it. This is a laptop that work HQ didn't want back due to battery swelling issue so it didn't cost me anything. When I reflect back on the Dell Zino micro PC I bought my wife and it's multiple component failures I'd prefer not go in that direction ever again.

Yesterday was the most relaxed hassle free trip yet. All I really need now is a remote control to talk to Foobar2000 playback for pause / skip forward or back.

 

[Sal1950]

Last thing - I'd ripped Tears For Fears - The Hurting to get the 5.1 mix and place it on the HDD in a separate folder. After a less than satisfactory listen of key tracks in Atmos on the living room 5.1.2 system, I wanted to really get inside the mix. I LOVE this SW mix 10 times more than I did with the system in the house.

I curious as to why your find the home system unsatisfactory on this recording?
Or is it a across the board weakness with all Atmos recordings?
I very much enjoy this BD on my 5.2.4 rig.