HiRez Poll John, Elton - DIAMONDS [Blu-Ray Audio (Dolby Atmos)]

[RustyM]

10
An active Atmos environment. A terrific mix by Greg Penny. Plenty of Diamonds. Hats off to Paul Sinclair for SDE #31.

 

[Godman]

I never had any regular EJ releases but we all know so many of these tracks through AOR radio. I played it through last night, skipped only 3 or 4 tracks and its a great "guilty pleasure" type of record for me as a prog rock fan. Excellent sound! Value for money for sure!

 

[ar surround]

Positives:

- Really good value for the money.

- The songs Crocodile Rock, Daniel and The B***h Is Back are devoid of the excessive sizzle that is so evident and annoying on the stereo albums.

- Virtually all of the songs from the earlier classic albums have excellent mixes and sound very discrete. No complaints at all.

However...

Negatives:

- Saturday Night's All Right For Fighting is a horrid mix. Listen to the 5.1. Why even bother with such a lame Atmos mix?

- Regarding the songs from Elton John's later catalog, many of these mixes sound like Penny was just going through the motions. These mixes are inferior to his mixes of the earlier material.

- As I've said in the past, it seems that most of these commercial Atmos releases are mixed to the lowest common denominator, that being headphone listeners. Example: the song Sacrifice. Although the mix here is very good, I've heard a non-commercial Atmos mix that is superior and much more satisfying. But this non-commercial mix is meant for a true 7.1.4 system and not recommended for headphone listeners. How to make an Atmos mix that sounds good to all listeners has got to be a dilemma for commercial mixers.

So for me it is a mixed bag that I give an 8.

 

[GilWave]

This is an outstanding release in every way. I was initially disappointed that there wasn't a dedicated 5.1 mix, but this is by far the best-sounding fold-down Atmos mix in my collection. I would never know it's not a dedicated 5.1 mix. It easily rates a 10 for quantity and quality.

Not understanding several calls I've seen lamenting the exclusion of Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding. This is a greatest-hits collection, and that track wasn't a single or a hit, nor was it included on the many previous releases of Diamonds. So why would it be included on this Blu-ray Audio version?

Because it is a Diamond in the collection of Elton John's pantheon, and a great music production of a great song from a great album that would benefit from (and lends itself to) an Atmos mix on this collection of Atmos diamonds.


Is each of the 52 tracks included on this BluRay a single or a 'hit'?

Here's the internet consensus:

"Love Lies Bleeding" by Elton John was never released as a standalone single; it is part of the longer piece "Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding" which appeared on his album "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" and was considered too long to be a typical single release, but received significant radio airplay due to its epic nature.

 

[Bob Finholm]

Mine arrived on Monday and I've been playing a few songs per night. It is sensational! The separation is amazing and the clarity is outstanding. The center channel sounds like Elton's sitting next to you.

 

[bFletch]

I have ripped this disk with MKV and DVD Audio Extractor. This always works well for 5.1 Blu Ray disks but I haven't been able to get my jRiver based music server to fold down (down mix) the Atmos to 5.1. Does anyone have advice for me on this?
In the meantime, I want to say that my Oppo 205 does down mix it beautifully (just be sure to go into settings and work your way to "speaker configuration" then click on "Down Mix" and choose 5.1).
I agree with others that it does make a spectacular 5.1 mix when played this way! We're very grateful to have these additional EJ songs in surround. Even at just 48/24 it is a great sounding mix and very worth having.

 

[privateuniverse]

- Regarding the songs from Elton John's later catalog, many of these mixes sound like Penny was just going through the motions. These mixes are inferior to his mixes of the earlier material.

I am so glad that you said this. Granted, I am listening to the Atmos downmixed to 5.1, but I was pretty underwhelmed by the post-1976 stuff. I didn't enjoy the mixes on these tracks as much as I did the earlier ones. And I'm not one of those folks who thinks Elton stopped making good music after the 70's. "Believe", "I Want Love", "This Train", "The One", "Sacrifice" and "Home Again" are all faves of mine. (And why no "Healing Hands"? It went to #1 in England!) I need to get over to a friend's place and hear it in full Atmos before making a judgement. Just glad to know that I'm not the only one who felt the mixes on the later tracks weren't as strong.

 

[EltonMSO]

Did anyone else notice that the Guitar solo fade out of The One is different between the Stereo and the Atmos versions?
Or am I imagining things?

 

[key_wiz]

Because it is a Diamond in the collection of Elton John's pantheon, and a great music production of a great song from a great album that would benefit from (and lends itself to) an Atmos mix on this collection of Atmos diamonds.


Is each of the 52 tracks included on this BluRay a single or a 'hit'?

Here's the internet consensus:

"Love Lies Bleeding" by Elton John was never released as a standalone single; it is part of the longer piece "Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding" which appeared on his album "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" and was considered too long to be a typical single release, but received significant radio airplay due to its epic nature.

This is not a collection curated for Atmos.

It was first released in 2017 in stereo as in both two and three CD versions. The first two discs are all singles and were hits on at least one chart.

The third disc was a "bonus disc" on the deluxe version with even more hit singles with every one of them having charted at least somewhere. The only true non-singles on the set were the Piano Version of "Skyline Pigeon" (b-side to "Daniel") and "Pinball Wizard", which received as much airplay at the time as if it were a single and charted in several countries based on airplay alone.

Could Funeral/Love Lies have been on the album? Sure. But so could have so many others. And GYBR is already well represented with 4 tracks. Tumbleweed Connection isn't represented at all. Some fairly big hits were left off. "Levon" could have been on here. "Border Song" . "Grow Some Funk Of Your Own" "I Feel Like A Bullet"

We can debate forever which tracks they could or could not have chosen but how well suited any are for Atmos clearly wasn't going to be the case for an album compiled without Atmos in mind at all.

 

[fredblue]

what does this release mean to me?
these songs say so much.

more than i could ever put into words here.
to me they're treasures.

so instead i shall try and set aside emotional or visceral response to the new Atmos mixes and analyse why i feel some tracks fare better in Surround than others by looking at what we are being presented with by this Surround compilation in real terms.

48 tracks in Surround (admittedly by my favourite solo artist, so content wise i'm bound to exhibit bias towards the music itself. damn it. i was trying to be a robot!)

46 year span between the recording of the oldest track from 1970 ("Your Song") & 2016's "Looking Up") in various studios around the world with an array of musicians and technicians through the decades.

11 Production teams.

11 different sets of Producers put these 48 tracks together over a 46 year period.

just from that standpoint alone i find Greg Penny's remixing work is a Herculean feat (pun intended, of course).

there's so many variables from track to track, from year to year, from backing band to backing band, from genre to genre, Arranger and Producer to Arranger and Producer, i find it quite remarkable that Greg Penny wrangled any kind of coherent consistency in sound across the 48 tracks, recorded over 46 years.

what do the majority of the best mixes have in common?
for me it's Gus Dudgeon.

Gus originally Produced 21 of these 48 tracks and for me he was far and away Elton's finest Producer.

Chris Thomas Produced 13 of these 48 tracks.

among a number of things, the sequencing of this compilation reveals the stark difference in Production values between Gus & Chris and indeed the others who Produced Elton over the years.

listening to "Nikita", bookended by "Sad Songs Say So Much" & "I Don't Wanna Go On With You Like That", it occurred to me Greg Penny must have had a better original multitrack recording to work with on Gus' "Nikita" because the uptick in Surround sound is marked when heard between those two Chris Thomas Produced tracks.

the tracks Elton himself Produced with Clive Franks between 1977 and 1980 ("Little Jeannie", "Song For Guy" & "Part-Time Love") and Clive Franks & Elton with Thom Bell ("Mama Can't Buy You Love" & "Are You Ready For Love") stand out compared to most of the Chris Thomas Produced tracks as just sounding like better productions and so it came as no surprise to me that those 5 tracks also sound more satisfying in Surround.

the 2 x T-Bone Burnett Productions get a sonic uptick in the new mixes but you can tell "Looking Up" is a poorly put together track. i find it a lazy lousy chunk of cubit zirconia no amount of buffing and polishing by Greg Penny could shape into a Diamond.

i'll stop here for now but will revisit the Poll as more thoughts occur.

for now, despite any niggles, as a superb and rather large compilation with more Surround highlights than most i've heard to date, i cannot give this any less than a "10" and if i could go to "11" i would

 

[fredblue]

just briefly popping back to add to this train of thought while we at QQ understandably tend to focus more on Mixing and Engineers, continuing on with the idea that the original Producers of these tracks play a big part in how Greg Penny's Surround ultimately panned out, an example of how how 'clever' and 'bold' i thought it was to even attempt a Surround remix of "Good Morning To The Night", itself a multi-layered collage of old Elton tracks and yet the end result in Atmos is kinda "meh" and underwhelming to me, potentially because the "original" (if we can call Pnau's multitrack mashup that!) is quite flat and lacking compared to the texture and detail of the actual originals Produced by Gus Dudgeon.

then i thought "why so/how so?" and then "Victim Of Love" hit me like a two-ton truck. Dance has to achieve something quite different from a ballad or a rocker, with a vibe that's not loaded with whimsy or passion, no sweet romance, it's love of a different kind from the innocence of "Your Song" or the adoration of the seamstress for the band of "Tiny Dancer" but Dance should be thunder in the night, doof-y and thuddy, Teutonic with a beat to get you on your feet.

of the other Producers on Diamonds, we have the likes of Narada Michael Walden handling the "True Love" duet with Kiki Dee. lush but kinda sterile and bland and hangs there, the Surround doesn't do much either.. and how did he get the Producer's gig anyway? a Proggy spacey drummer does a schmaltzy rendition of a Classic? huh? like most of the "Duets" album it's a head-scratcher.

then we have Wilbur C Rimes producing the Aida duet with LeAnn Rimes, "Written In The Stars", i find the original track has all the verve and emotion of a deflated crisp packet, there's no chemistry between the singers and again i ask myself, what did Greg Penny really have to work with here? not a lot i suspect and the Surround results aren't a personal highlight of the compilation.

i find "Believe" to come across more satisfyingly in the Surround stakes but then it was originally Produced by Greg Penny himself so he should have had less miracle work to do to inject some life into the track, if that comes across as a back-handed compliment it's not intended to be, however one supposes it would have been less challenging to reimagine in Surround.

unlike "Something About The Way You Look Tonight" & "Live Like Horses" the parent album they're from being 1997's "The Big Picture" which i found a sonic sludge with some of the most leaden dreary dirges of Elton's career, mired by some awful arrangements and mostly plodding Production; a bit like some of the 80's tracks, Chris Thomas Producing Elton with neither doing their best work. the Atmos of "Something About The Way.." also uses an alternate vocal take, at least for part of the first verse, which is a less gutsy vocal to that used in the original Stereo but i'm sure there's only so much Greg Penny had to work with.

then we have the 2 x 'Songs From The West Coast' tracks, "I Want Love" & "This Train Don't Stop There Anymore", Produced by Patrick Leonard.

the original Stereo mixes of both were compressed and congested by design with intentionally reduced dynamics and distortion and saturation used to create "a sound".
at the time of the album's release, Elton was banging on about "analogue" and how he wanted everything he did from now on to be on tape and all warm and hissy and analogue-y, no more of that digital schmigital for Sir Elton and Greg Penny was clearly going for a similar sound in his new mixes of these two tracks, which is fair enough otherwise the Atmos wouldn't sound authentic to the originals but by recreating 'that sound', no matter how artfully, it renders the new mixes Lo-Fi and shrunken by comparison to some of the other tracks in Atmos, with an overall sense of there being less of the breath of life of Gus' best Elton work, dynamic with plenty of room to dynamically expand out into space. ahh.. time to get back to work ...to be continued..

 

[beerking]

just briefly popping back to add to this train of thought while we at QQ understandably tend to focus more on Mixing and Engineers, continuing on with the idea that the original Producers of these tracks play a big part in how Greg Penny's Surround ultimately panned out, an example of how how 'clever' and 'bold' i thought it was to even attempt a Surround remix of "Good Morning To The Night", itself a multi-layered collage of old Elton tracks and yet the end result in Atmos is kinda "meh" and underwhelming to me, potentially because the "original" (if we can call Pnau's multitrack mashup that!) is quite flat and lacking compared to the texture and detail of the actual originals Produced by Gus Dudgeon.

then i thought "why so/how so?" and then "Victim Of Love" hit me like a two-ton truck. Dance has to achieve something quite different from a ballad or a rocker, with a vibe that's not loaded with whimsy or passion, no sweet romance, it's love of a different kind from the innocence of "Your Song" or the adoration of the seamstress for the band of "Tiny Dancer" but Dance should be thunder in the night, doof-y and thuddy, Teutonic with a beat to get you on your feet.

of the other Producers on Diamonds, we have the likes of Narada Michael Walden handling the "True Love" duet with Kiki Dee. lush but kinda sterile and bland and hangs there, the Surround doesn't do much either.. and how did he get the Producer's gig anyway? a Proggy spacey drummer does a schmaltzy rendition of a Classic? huh? like most of the "Duets" album it's a head-scratcher.

then we have Wilbur C Rimes producing the Aida duet with LeAnn Rimes, "Written In The Stars", i find the original track has all the verve and emotion of a deflated crisp packet, there's no chemistry between the singers and again i ask myself, what did Greg Penny really have to work with here? not a lot i suspect and the Surround results aren't a personal highlight of the compilation.

i find "Believe" to come across more satisfyingly in the Surround stakes but then it was originally Produced by Greg Penny himself so he should have had less miracle work to do to inject some life into the track, if that comes across as a back-handed compliment it's not intended to be, however one supposes it would have been less challenging to reimagine in Surround.

unlike "Something About The Way You Look Tonight" & "Live Like Horses" the parent album they're from being 1997's "The Big Picture" which i found a sonic sludge with some of the most leaden dreary dirges of Elton's career, mired by some awful arrangements and mostly plodding Production; a bit like some of the 80's tracks, Chris Thomas Producing Elton with neither doing their best work. the Atmos of "Something About The Way.." also uses an alternate vocal take, at least for part of the first verse, which is a less gutsy vocal to that used in the original Stereo but i'm sure there's only so much Greg Penny had to work with.

then we have the 2 x 'Songs From The West Coast' tracks, "I Want Love" & "This Train Don't Stop There Anymore", Produced by Patrick Leonard.

the original Stereo mixes of both were compressed and congested by design with intentionally reduced dynamics and distortion and saturation used to create "a sound".
at the time of the album's release, Elton was banging on about "analogue" and how he wanted everything he did from now on to be on tape and all warm and hissy and analogue-y, no more of that digital schmigital for Sir Elton and Greg Penny was clearly going for a similar sound in his new mixes of these two tracks, which is fair enough otherwise the Atmos wouldn't sound authentic to the originals but by recreating 'that sound', no matter how artfully, it renders the new mixes Lo-Fi and shrunken by comparison to some of the other tracks in Atmos, with an overall sense of there being less of the breath of life of Gus' best Elton work, dynamic with plenty of room to dynamically expand out into space. ahh.. time to get back to work ...to be continued..

Ooh the stuff I've learned off Adam .
And will continue to learn...

I feel a QQ rockumentry is needed to harness this wealth of knowledge and passion from the afore mentioned Adam.

 

[fredblue]

Ooh the stuff I've learned off Adam .
And will continue to learn...

I feel a QQ rockumentry is needed to harness this wealth of knowledge and passion from the afore mentioned Adam.

oh King of the Nektar you're far too kind! there's sooooo much guff i can puff n stuff about Elton it'd derail the Rocket train of this Poll i ought to refrain from doing so and maybe take it to a separate thread, i dunno

that said, while i'm on the EJ Production slant, i can't bash Chris Thomas too much because he did help carry Elton through turbulent years in the artist's life and ensure Elton continued to churn out at least one Top 40 hit every year even in leaner creative times.

it's not easy for a die-hard fan to admit there's a lot less gems for a compilation like Diamonds to draw upon but the fact is that while there's an embarrassment of riches to add to the tracklist from the 70's albums, you're often left with just that one yearly hit from the 80's and beyond.

a nice Chris Thomas anecdote and a reflection on how Elton and Chris' planets did truly align at times, even after working with Elton for a few years, Chris was still astonished when Elton bashed out his piano and vocal for "I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues" in one take Chris, clearly inspired by this flash of brilliance in the studio, then had the genius idea to whizz from Montserrat to LA and ask Stevie Wonder to drop in a sensational harmonica solo which took the track to another level

despite my bemoaning a few aspects of the 80's, 90's and Noughties of EJ's career and perhaps Greg Penny's reluctance (or even lack of potential ) to polish the odd latter-day Elton glass bauble into an EJ Diamond, you know with these Polls when 8's and 9's are outliers it's far from doom and gloom and as has been said many times by many commentators, in a weird way Elton was one of his own biggest rivals, with his current music always being judged (unfairly?) by the benchmark of his 70's Classics.. and that's exactly what happens with Diamonds, even in Surround the 70's gems often outshine the later tracks and there's no getting away from that. still, 48 Elton tracks in Surround, is that the good stuff or what!!! ‍♀

 

[fredblue]

oh yeah and while it was almost a relief that everyone involved in collating Diamonds conveniently forgot all about 1986's "Leather Jackets" it is a bit of a shame that the largely excellent 1995 "Made In England" album was so under-represented on the compilation besides "Believe", at the very least i'd have expected the title track to represent a post-70's punchier tune and that 2004's "Peachtree Road" and 2006's "The Captain & The Kid" were also totally airbrushed out of the picture

it might have been fun to hear "The Bridge" or "Tinderbox", or "Answer In The Sky" or "Turn The Lights Out When You Leave" in Atmos.

ahh.. maybe not.. i better get my coat, dear, it looks like rain!

 

[EltonMSO]

@fredblue As a fellow Elton fan, can you confirm if the The One atmos mix features an alternate guitar solo take from the stereo mix? I've been trying to compare the two, but being unable to rip it, it's hard to do. (especially since the fade out also seem to be timed differently with a slow more gradual stereo fade and a quicker atmos fade, at least that's the conclusion I draw when rapidly trying to switch audio tracks during the song)

 

[The Rang]

fredblue said:
“in a weird way Elton was one of his own biggest rivals, with his current music always being judged (unfairly?) by the benchmark of his 70's Classics”

I’ve never thought about it that way and it’s 100% true.
I recently played the Jewel Box set and it had me appreciating so much post 70’s material that I previously dismissed.
And I agree that Made in England was a very good album, my favourite of that era.

 

[rasalas]

Because it is a Diamond in the collection of Elton John's pantheon, and a great music production of a great song from a great album that would benefit from (and lends itself to) an Atmos mix on this collection of Atmos diamonds.


Is each of the 52 tracks included on this BluRay a single or a 'hit'?

Here's the internet consensus:

"Love Lies Bleeding" by Elton John was never released as a standalone single; it is part of the longer piece "Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding" which appeared on his album "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" and was considered too long to be a typical single release, but received significant radio airplay due to its epic nature.

The answer is simple: This is a Blu-ray Audio version of a previously released collection. Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Like Bleeding wasn't on that collection. That's why it's not on the Blu-ray.

 

[fredblue]

@fredblue As a fellow Elton fan, can you confirm if the The One atmos mix features an alternate guitar solo take from the stereo mix? I've been trying to compare the two, but being unable to rip it, it's hard to do. (especially since the fade out also seem to be timed differently with a slow more gradual stereo fade and a quicker atmos fade, at least that's the conclusion I draw when rapidly trying to switch audio tracks during the song)

i've been a bit conflicted about the Atmos of "The One" from when it first hit the streaming services, the new mix definitely captures some of the feel of the original but is quite different.

i do wonder how many of the changes were enforced and how many were a choice, i.e. were they due to missing elements/overdubs/alternate parts used or a stylistic decision rather than necessitated by availablity of/lack of materials and more down to Greg Penny opting to modernise the sound, or making it sound slightly closer to how he might have Produced it in the first place, i've no idea.

for sure the balances of the intro "seaside" sound effects have been altered (the birds effects are boosted in Atmos/crashing waves type effects diminished in Atmos), the Atmos has overall warmer and deeper extended bass than the original 1992 CD mastering, the Atmos has less reverb on certain piano and vocal parts initially but the Atmos then has more reverb effects and panning particularly on vocals later on in the track than the original so it's inconsistent if reverb changes are part of a modernization approach to the mix. also, some synth string elements are brought up in the Atmos and there are guitar crunches here & there that are dialled back in the Atmos.

as for the outro, i'm so used to the original that i found the way it's handled in the Atmos kinda jarring but i'm getting used to it now. the Stereo fades out with Davey's guitar and Elton's piano more prominent, whereas the Atmos fades out with a greater emphasis on diminishing synths, Davey's guitar all but disappears and Elton's still tinkling away.

there's also a ballsier crunch to some guitar parts in the Stereo and some synth bits are different/less prominent but the Stereo is all kind of narrow compared to the new mix which is more expansive with a wider feeling overall.

 

[fredblue]

fredblue said:
“in a weird way Elton was one of his own biggest rivals, with his current music always being judged (unfairly?) by the benchmark of his 70's Classics”

I’ve never thought about it that way and it’s 100% true.
I recently played the Jewel Box set and it had me appreciating so much post 70’s material that I previously dismissed.
And I agree that Made in England was a very good album, my favourite of that era.

i'd be a rich b!tch if i had a penny for every conversation about Elton's latest single/album over the last 30 or so years with both casual listeners and hardcore fans alike where they've said "ah it's alright but it's not as good as his old stuff"

 

[humprof]

11 different sets of Producers put these 48 tracks together over a 46 year period.

just from that standpoint alone i find Greg Penny's remixing work is a Herculean feat (pun intended, of course).

there's so many variables from track to track, from year to year, from backing band to backing band, from genre to genre, Arranger and Producer to Arranger and Producer, i find it quite remarkable that Greg Penny wrangled any kind of coherent consistency in sound across the 48 tracks, recorded over 46 years.

Great point. (Also worth remembering that Penny isn't the sole immersive mixer on this compilation; according to the excellent feature story that @JFHiggins wrote, chip-off-the-block Felix Penny is credited with 13 of the mixes, including "Home Again," "Good Morning to the Night," "Live Like Horses," "Written In the Stars," "Something About the Way You Look Tonight," "I Want Love," "Kiss the Bride," and "True Love.")