HiRez Poll Kansas - THE ABSENCE OF PRESENCE [Blu-Ray Audio]

[Marplot]

Sound Forge 11 doesn't recognize DTS-HD MA so I don't have anything to post that with. Hope the others were both what you wanted, and of value.

 

[JediJoker]

5.1 DTS
View attachment 54879

And this illustrates why the TT/MAAT DR Meter is useless for more than two channels. Those front two channels look just like the stereo from the Blu-ray, and are just as lacking in dynamic range, but the meter averages out to read five decibels greater due to the relatively low levels of the other three channels. Your ears, of course, won't hear it this way. It will still sound overly loud because the front channels are overly loud.

Stop using DR for surround!

 

[Marplot]

I guess it is time to vote
30% SURROUND MIX - How good is this mix? Not very good. 6/10 = 1.8
30% AUDIO FIDELITY - How does it sound? It sounds fine, once you ignore the tame mix. 7/10 = 2.1
30% CONTENT - Do you like it. Is it good music. Will you go back to it again? It's OK, maybe a few times a year. 6/10 = 1.8
10% OVERALL PACKAGE - Format, packaging, added value (extra discs), marbles, format, encoding, ease of play, menu layout, bonus content (videos, making of), documentation, and other things you like or don't like about it. I like BR/CD in a cheap package. I really like the inclusion of a less brickwalled and higher Hz stereo version. 10/10 = 1

6.7 rounded to 7, ouch.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Sound Forge 11 doesn't recognize DTS-HD MA so I don't have anything to post that with. Hope the others were both what you wanted, and of value.

Good work Marplot, much appreciated.
Proof of MCDave's observation.

So the CD was mastered for earbuds and iphones, like most commercial releases nowadays.

 

[Marplot]

And this illustrates why the TT/MAAT DR Meter is useless for more than two channels. Those front two channels look just like the stereo from the Blu-ray, and are just as lacking in dynamic range, but the meter averages out to read five decibels greater due to the relatively low levels of the other three channels. Your ears, of course, won't hear it this way. It will still sound overly loud because the front channels are overly loud.

Stop using DR for surround!

Fair point. It is possible, and of value, to DR the front channels as a value to compare with the stereo, and then a total DR as a reference to how the other channels influence it?

 

[~dave~~wave~]

And this illustrates why the TT/MAAT DR Meter is useless for more than two channels. Those front two channels look just like the stereo from the Blu-ray, and are just as lacking in dynamic range, but the meter averages out to read five decibels greater due to the relatively low levels of the other three channels. Your ears, of course, won't hear it this way. It will still sound overly loud because the front channels are overly loud.

Stop using DR for surround!

With all due respect, sir, it appears to me that the peaks on the hi-res 2.0 are higher than the front channels of the 5.1.
I just had my eyes tested last week, could you kindly explain what I'm missing?

 

[curtisjnewell]

Shouldn't we be at least talking about Kerry livgren's Cantata? Sure there probably will never be a surround mix, but the music could be great! Does anybody know when it will be done? Why wouldn't he be working on it, now because he had his own studio!!!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Out of curiosity I took the 5.1 DTS of the last track merged the FL with RL and FR with RR, then merged together the LFE with Center, and finally merged that back into the Fronts. Without any adjustments it gave the same DR 7 as the HD stereo.

It looked bricked slightly, so I reduced everything by 3db, and did the same thing and came up with a DR of 10; not sure if it did anything but that's the numbers. I'll listen on headphones and see how it sounds.

 

[GOS]

OK bro...I have no idea what you just said. lmao

 

[J. PUPSTER]

OK bro...I have no idea what you just said. lmao

It sounded good though didn' it

 

[Marplot]

Now I wonder if the artwork isn't the engineer going 'a f*$@ a DR of 8 and weak multi, they are going to kill me'

 

[Which_One_Is_Pink]

Life in Surround Review, explaining my vote, rounded up to "8".
That p

Pretty much sums it up for me Mike, I have been a Kansas fan since day one and while it would be great if it was all original members, for me the main thing is the music and like you I like what I hear. Although I will say that if I could choose the original member to be involved it would have to be Mr. Livgren for me his writing and playing was the special sauce that made classic Kansas a cut above.

 

[Ranasakawa]

5 from me
Average mix and the music bored me to tears.

 

[JediJoker]

With all due respect, sir, it appears to me that the peaks on the hi-res 2.0 are higher than the front channels of the 5.1.
I just had my eyes tested last week, could you kindly explain what I'm missing?

They look the same to me. The vertical scale is different; that's all.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

They look the same to me. The vertical scale is different; that's all.

OK, thanks.
You gotta call 'em the way you see 'em, as the baseball umpires say.

Your observation about comparing DR between stereo and 5.1 is a good one, I learned from it.
Pupster's subsequent experiments in downmixing bear it out.

I turned down the volume in the front channels on first listen.
That's why I asked to see waveforms as well as simple DR integers.

To my eye, even allowing for the difference in scale, the stereo waveform shows "haircut" clipping or compression that the 5.1 does not.
The difference between mastered loud and mastered "crushed."
If they were identical, tweaking the mix balance while listening in surround or attempting a downmix might be futile.

How much improvement is audible is up the listener and their equipment, YMMV.
☮



STEREO BLU RAY CH 1




5.1 BLU RAY CH 1

 

[jimfisheye]

Pretty much sums it up for me Mike, I have been a Kansas fan since day one and while it would be great if it was all original members, for me the main thing is the music and like you I like what I hear. Although I will say that if I could choose the original member to be involved it would have to be Mr. Livgren for me his writing and playing was the special sauce that made classic Kansas a cut above.

They were definitely a group and almost certainly worked on arrangements as a group. But I think Kerry Livgren was where all the psychedelic breaks throughout all those songs came from. And those are the bits that make Kansas Kansas for me.

This band is mimicking the overall style and sound but there aren't any solid bits of arrangement like that that have their own life force. The last track on the album kicks up a decent jam though that must have come out of genuinely playing together. Glad they snuck that onto the album at least!

Looking at the waveforms...
The fronts aren't brick-walled. They're flat-line hot for sure but not strictly brick-walled. There's a sliver of headroom and hairy looking wave tops. The mix must have been bionic hot coming off the tracks and subgroups. This knowledge doesn't help or change anything. But if you were inclined to look for a version with assumed better mastering and free of that, it probably doesn't exist. The mix is hot and front heavy. Only the last track woke the engineer up and got some surround mixing. Otherwise it's random conservative little bits in surround. The occasional quad keyboard sound module patch and so forth.

Ya know, even Leftoverture has an AM radio level of compression. Squashed sound has always been one of the unfortunate signatures of Kansas albums. On the other hand, the mixes are always fully hi-fi sounding (if a bit squashed) and you hear all the parts clearly and as intended in the arrangements. And that's not nothing! This album is no different. Very professional sound and fidelity overall. I'll probably pull that last track out more than a lot of things that get released. There's plenty to comment on here while being frustrated that we still don't have a 5.1 mix of Leftoverture. But considering all that and that this is a tribute band it's better than I might have expected.

 

[curtisjnewell]

Kerry Livgren has written many excellent songs. Isn't anybody interested in his CANTATA?? When will he ever finish it??? It's been years!

 

[MCDave]

Kerry Livgren has written many excellent songs. Isn't anybody interested in his CANTATA?? When will he ever finish it??? It's been years!

A quick Google search revealed he's close, but slowed down due to the pandemic like everything else.

 

[skherbeck]

5.1 PCM
View attachment 54880

It's interesting that the 5.1 DTS has almost nothing happening in the LFE while the 5.1 PCM has an active LFE... has anyone noticed a difference in the sound when comparing these two streams?