HiRez Poll Keane - HOPES AND FEARS [SACD/DualDisc DVD-A]

[junh1024]

I obtained the DVDA recently and had a listen to the surround mix - it wasn't that discrete and exciting.

 

[The Bright Side]

I listened to this DualDisc a couple times now to find out if there's anything discrete about the surround mix. For the life of me, I cannot hear anything in the rears that isn't going on in the fronts. I understand this isn't a very exciting mix to begin with, but can you guys let me know if there is any point at all where anything discrete happens?

I even have the vocals in the rears. Right now, it sounds like channels are simply duplicated, and I wonder if perhaps I have a faulty disc or something. Is this really a "double stereo" kind of thing?

I wouldn't mind either way, as the sound is pretty good and the music is nice enough for the couple bucks I paid.

 

[fredblue]

I listened to this DualDisc a couple times now to find out if there's anything discrete about the surround mix. For the life of me, I cannot hear anything in the rears that isn't going on in the fronts. I understand this isn't a very exciting mix to begin with, but can you guys let me know if there is any point at all where anything discrete happens?

I even have the vocals in the rears. Right now, it sounds like channels are simply duplicated, and I wonder if perhaps I have a faulty disc or something. Is this really a "double stereo" kind of thing?

I wouldn't mind either way, as the sound is pretty good and the music is nice enough for the couple bucks I paid.

Funny I just scanned this DualDisc in for the QQ DVD-A Gallery!

I haven't played this in years and years, so i can't recall if the mix is upto much.. I seem to remember being a bit disappointed at the time.. but still Nathaniel Kunkel gets the credit for the surround mix and he did do some great work on the James Taylor SACDs, so unless he had duff material to work with, or he was being leant on by the band/the label/other outside forces, to shape the mix a certain way, it should't be too terrible..!

 

[LizardKing]

One of those titles that people like or hate...

This may be double stereo & LOUD..... but I quite like it..... Consider it a guilty pleasure.

 

[GOS]

Big fan of Keane and Hopes and Fears is a great disc. I have the Dual Disc, I find it fun to listen to...though it's not the perfect mix. I gave it a 7.

 

[Franklin]

I also have the dualdisc, and I was quite disappointed with the surround mix, it only seems to slightly shine on a few tracks as far as I remember. It doesn't seem massively consistent that I recall. Strangely enough I considered giving it a spin just now, but chose something else. Also disappointing is that the album is in the outside the UK form, which means the running order is a little different and it is missing one of my favourite tracks on the album (On A Day Like Today).

 

[Franklin]

So this sounds better following some upgrades/replacements since 2014. I'm still not wowed by it, though. The vocals don't sound right, it makes Tom sound like he's got a speech impediment - was this part of an engineers' technique of EQing post mic rather than choosing the right one for the vocalist? I'd say the lead vocals are possibly a *touch* too high, but well placed in the mix. There's several elements that are either not present or not as readily heard on the stereo mix, which makes it more interesting, and nothing is wrecked by the remix although in some cases I don't like the feel of the track quite as much as the stereo mix. This was an album I owned and liked before I was even aware there was a surround mix for it, so I'm quite familar with the stereo mix, and I think I would still reach for it more often that the 5.1. Sunshine is possibly my favourite surround mix on the album.

The running order for the album should be:

1. Somewhere Only We Know
2. Bend And Break
3. We Might As Well Be Strangers
4. Everybody's Changing
5. Your Eyes Open
6. She Has No Time

7. Can't Stop Now
8. This Is The Last Time
9. Sunshine
10. On A Day Like Today
11. Untitled 1
12. Bedshaped

It's kind of a seven, but it's missing one of the original tracks, so I guess that makes it a six.

I played the DualDisc DVD-A.

 

[fredblue]

Just ripped this with DVDAE and for fits and giggles I thought I'd check out the 6-ch FLACs in Audacity...

OMG, no wonder it sounds like shit.. the stems look like shit! :yikes

First off, FL/FR & SL/SR are much louder than the Centre and LFE, lots of clipping going on in those 4 channels, they're not total box hedges but they're maximised,
Second, lead vocals are significantly louder in the SL/SR channels.

So I quickly did a couple of things, lowered the overall volume, lowered FL/FR & SL/SR by 2dB and raised the Centre & LFE by 1dB.
Then I swapped over FL/FR & SL/SR.

Ta-da!

So.. I am calling my new revised version "Fronts And Rears" :ugham:

As the ad man says; "Try it, you might like it"..!

 

[GOS]

Just ripped this with DVDAE and for fits and giggles I thought I'd check out the 6-ch FLACs in Audacity...

OMG, no wonder it sounds like shit.. the stems look like shit! :yikes

First off, FL/FR & SL/SR are much louder than the Centre and LFE, lots of clipping going on in those 4 channels, they're not total box hedges but they're maximised,
Second, lead vocals are significantly louder in the SL/SR channels.

So I quickly did a couple of things, lowered the overall volume, lowered FL/FR & SL/SR by 2dB and raised the Centre & LFE by 1dB.
Then I swapped over FL/FR & SL/SR.

Ta-da!

So.. I am calling my new revised version "Fronts And Rears" :ugham:

As the ad man says; "Try it, you might like it"..!

Awesome.... Ahem... PM coming Adam..

 

[fredblue]

This is the first time that I will post this pic of This Is The Last Time

Pic 1;
Hopes and Fears "as is" fresh from the DVD-A.. look at all that crazy clipping! Woo!



Pic 2;
Follow the star and you will go far (basically lower FL/FR & SL/SR, then swap FL/FR & SL/SR in the output bus, as you can see it makes a pretty star pattern.. you can tinker with Centre & LFE levels as you like, here I left them as they were, for a couple of other tracks I changed em/raised em)



Pic 3;
I present to you Keane's new 5.1 album "Fronts And Rears"
(Centre & LFE left as is on this one)

 

[Franklin]

Hi Adam

Is your vertical axis set to 24 bit? What is the peek samples in a row setting to flag as being clipped? For the era (in terms of stereo mastering at least) that's not bad at all. Also, if the vocals are in the front three as well as the rear, doesn't that account for at least some of the lower level at the front?

Just wonderin'...

 

[fredblue]

Hi Adam

Is your vertical axis set to 24 bit? What is the peek samples in a row setting to flag as being clipped? For the era (in terms of stereo mastering at least) that's not bad at all. Also, if the vocals are in the front three as well as the rear, doesn't that account for at least some of the lower level at the front?

Just wonderin'...

Oh you'll have to keep on wanderin', minstrel Mike! I don't know my axis from my elbow!
All's I know's is... I've Audacity setup@96/24.. DVDAE reports this DualDisc@48/24.. beyond that I dunno!

Vocals are significantly lower in what's originally (i.e. on the disc) designated as Front L & R than they are in Rear L & R, on every track.. it may have been a mixing decision at the time.. but I can't see it (or rather hear it!) to me it sounds better with fronts & rears swapped and those 4 x channels slightly lowered in level relative to the Centre & LFE.

I could do a 30-sec comparison clip? or PM anytime of zee day or night for more info etc!

 

[Franklin]

I gave this a spin again tonight. It's still not a favourite surround mix, and the vocals still bother me: there's problems with plosives and unvoiced sounds (like esses) and it just does not sound right. The vocals remain too high for me, and Everybody's Changing is disappointing in its overall feel. There's enough different stuff in the mix to keep it interesting, but I don't like the authoring as the player searches for each track rather than plays through like Love (aside from the layer change on Love). In other news, I'm not the lowest scorer on the poll!

 

[fredblue]

I gave this a spin again tonight. It's still not a favourite surround mix, and the vocals still bother me: there's problems with plosives and unvoiced sounds (like esses) and it just does not sound right. The vocals remain too high for me, and Everybody's Changing is disappointing in its overall feel. There's enough different stuff in the mix to keep it interesting, but I don't like the authoring as the player searches for each track rather than plays through like Love (aside from the layer change on Love). In other news, I'm not the lowest scorer on the poll!

did you try it as hopes and fears, I mean fronts and rears ( ) reversed?

 

[Franklin]

Nah, it doesn't sound reversed to me, and I don't fancy rewiring. I might isolate the pairs though and see how that sounds.

 

[Franklin]

Scrub that! I think you're right. There's far more bass in the rears than the front which doesn't seem right at all. The vocals at the back seemed acceptable as I thought they were going for a centre of the room effect, but it can't be right have the bass more in the rears than the front for a 21st century mix. I'm referring to is the dualdisc DVD-A. Does anybody know if it's the same on the SACD?

Listening to This Is The Last Time, I'm convinced Adam is right. The assigned front channels are bare bones, no bass, minor vocals, whereas the rears have much of the beef of the track including vocals and bass.

 

[fredblue]

Scrub that! I think you're right. There's far more bass in the rears than the front which doesn't seem right at all. The vocals at the back seemed acceptable as I thought they were going for a centre of the room effect, but it can't be right have the bass more in the rears than the front for a 21st century mix. I'm referring to is the dualdisc DVD-A. Does anybody know if it's the same on the SACD?

Listening to This Is The Last Time, I'm convinced Adam is right. The assigned front channels are bare bones, no bass, minor vocals, whereas the rears have much of the beef of the track including vocals and bass.

its been a while since I last played the SACD but pretty sure its the same as the DVD-A.. when I first started to pull the tracks apart I was astonished to make the same discovery as you, all those little keyboard and effects flourishes in the fronts and all those vocals and low end in the rears, I thought; "this can't be right?!"
at some point I did repurpose the whole thing and adjust some levels.. iirc there was some clipping on various channels on some tracks and to balance out the vocal spread across the front required some lowering of the Centre channel from what I can remember but it was a while ago now and tbh when nobody could be bothered to try out the suggestion to flip the front and back etc I kinda lost heart (happens quite a bit really.. some days its felt like i'm posting in a vacuum.. you may or may not have noticed I'm posting a lot less these days, I haven't run out of things to say about surround its just i don't like talking to myself so much.. 1st sign of madness.. bit late for that maybe but.. anyway, light-hearted semi-moan over and out! let me know how you get on with adjusting the channels and such I'm all ears! )

 

[GOS]

its been a while since I last played the SACD but pretty sure its the same as the DVD-A.. when I first started to pull the tracks apart I was astonished to make the same discovery as you, all those little keyboard and effects flourishes in the fronts and all those vocals and low end in the rears, I thought; "this can't be right?!"
at some point I did repurpose the whole thing and adjust some levels.. iirc there was some clipping on various channels on some tracks and to balance out the vocal spread across the front required some lowering of the Centre channel from what I can remember but it was a while ago now and tbh when nobody could be bothered to try out the suggestion to flip the front and back etc I kinda lost heart (happens quite a bit really.. some days its felt like i'm posting in a vacuum.. you may or may not have noticed I'm posting a lot less these days, I haven't run out of things to say about surround its just i don't like talking to myself so much.. 1st sign of madness.. bit late for that maybe but.. anyway, light-hearted semi-moan over and out! let me know how you get on with adjusting the channels and such I'm all ears! )

But Adam, you are spot on! I heard you loud and clear...I love Keane and I love this title. Your changes are wonderful and I play this title often. It's a gem!!! I still have my original disc, so whatever.

 

[fredblue]

But Adam, you are spot on! I heard you loud and clear...I love Keane and I love this title. Your changes are wonderful and I play this title often. It's a gem!!! I still have my original disc, so whatever.

everybody's changing but we still feel the same!

 

[quattroatl]

everybody's changing but we still feel the same!

"Hopes and Fears" was just re-issued on vinyl for those of you who like this album.

The record sounds wonderful to my ears.

I also heard fredblue's re-adjusted 5.1 mix of this album, and let me tell you it sounds great! I really like this album and was always disappointed with the surround mix prior to hearing the "fixed" version.