lfe

[Mr. Afternoon]

I think I'll put some secret messages in the Lfe. Whispered voice (above 120Hz obviously) that can only be heard by someone speaker managing the Lfe channel into their full range front mains sans subwoofer. There's hidden tracks and then there's gaslighting tracks.

This is a very good idea, I'm doing this.

 

[Electric Moo]

"If you can hear this message, your audio setup is wrong. Call Tina at 6060-842"

 

[marpow]

Interesting subject as I read through this. Seems most posts prefer not to have LFE.
My personal experience is, I currently have 3 subs. All REL's.
Front of room sub is LFE and High Frequency connected. This one sub is for the front left and right speakers, so used the most in stereo and surround listening.
The rear of room sub is used for the two rear surrounds, connected LFE and High Frequency.
The sub at right front is connected High Frequency, no LFE, only to the back of center channel speaker two terminals.
I really like how these sound and work, really carries the low end very well as I prefer a LFE signal to not getting one.
The addition of all my room treatment panels with the two floor to ceiling bass traps in front is icing on the cake. I wouldn't change a thing.
I do like reading all your posts about LFE, informative subject with different opinions.

 

[Electric Moo]

The instance that initially got me using the LFE channel in surround was: a pirate ship starts firing cannons at the listeners boat, which is lighter & faster, so the pirate ship had to pan around to the back & then fade into the distance behind, as the listeners boat escapes.

This was really hard to pull off without a sub to carry the *booms* as everything else panned. But using the LFE & keying the volume sold the effect better.

Here's the original stereo mix, pirate encounter starts at 2 minutes. Panned right-->left to indicate travel. I think it sounds much better in 5.1, with the LFE!

 

[jimfisheye]

24 bit digital has headroom to the point that the Lfe channel could be fully obsolete. Sure, you'd have to turn down the whole program in some examples to accommodate certain heavy bass effects. That wasn't an option with tape because we were fighting to always stay above the hiss. Completely moot point in modern 24 bit digital audio. (As the "small top" speaker managed array being able to dial into calibration proves, for just one example.)

Literally the only "problem" would be all the volume war audio conditioned freaks that would complain "It's not loud enough. I had to actually get up and move a volume control! It was horrible!"

But...
If you have some bumpin bass fx content and a listener has dedicated subwoofers, the Lfe puts that content conveniently in its own channel. Otherwise you'd have to crossover your sub where you decided and separate sub content out that way. Might as well keep it at this point.

At the end of the day with a properly calibrated system, there should be zero difference between the same mix in 5.0 vs 5.1. There isn't anything you can do by having the separate bass channel that you can't just mix into the mains with 24 bit digital.


You could hide a full mono mix in there. Blazing brick wall limited loud if you wanted to.

 

[Electric Moo]

I guess that assumes everyone has good enough speakers for low end response? Everyone can easily add a sub though, to compliment any speaker.


I wonder what the statistic ratio would be, between

1. People who actually bothered to program the timer on their VCR's

2. People who actually bother to calibrate their 5.1 bass management

If it were possible to get the stats?

 

[jimfisheye]

A mains channel in 5.1 assumes a full range speaker just like a stereo channel.

I mean the signal in the wires coming out of the file could deliver the same mix from 5.1 in 5.0 with no harm. Regardless of what speaker system it's aimed at. Whereas with tape doing that would lead to more hiss right out of the box.

After that it's up to you to you to set up a speaker system. And it turns out there are additional options that make sense like the small top system. We split up full range channels with different range speakers and crossovers all the time anyway. Just an extension of that.

 

[mandrix]

I personally get along fine without the sub. If I just want to rock the house down sometimes I'll use the sub if in a mood, a few beverages, and e.g. with "Burning Down The House."
I have a matched speaker set, if not super expensive, and they get down plenty low enough for me. The exception quality wise, is my mid height speakers, which financial necessity dictated some lower end speakers as compared to the original 5.0 set. But I don't see matching bass reproduction in height channels as a deal killer.

The caveat is I have tinnitus, have for over 50 years. After a while the sub begins to sound like it's throbbing into my brain, especially with the Lfe track not done especially well or maybe it's just my sub. The tinnitus is a result of working in really loud environments, military service, being to close to PA's at clubs/concerts, and being young and dumb often when it came to ear protection. No going back now, however.

I do tire of comments on QQ that seem to intimate I don't know wth I'm doing and that I don't calibrate my system; (I do) but my AVR is much better at setting speaker delay than it is with other adjustments so I always have to make some tweaks. When people exhaust their dispensing of opinion on using the AVR calibration, that somehow I'm too stupid to use it properly or my preferring not to use the sub, the final weapon in their arsenal of attack often seems to be room treatments, seemingly flung out with the intimation that I just don't have sense enough to do what THEY do. In my case the room has plenty of soft surfaces and while it might well benefit from treatments, that just ain't gonna happen in a main living space occupied by more than just myself.

What I love on QQ are comments by such members as Mr. Afternoon at the dilemma of trying to mix for everyone and the myriad setups people have, or perhaps shortcomings he sees in his ability to do so, but delivered with humor and wit. Also for the many QQr's that try to provide information without belittling the target audience.

 

[Electric Moo]

Well I hope you're not referring to me, as I certainly did not intend to belittle anyone!

 

[mandrix]

Well I hope you're not referring to me, as I certainly did not intend to belittle anyone!

It's not really about this thread, but more like generalized crap I'm tired of on QQ as a whole.
I don't mind being "educated" about things to an extent, what I don't like is the smug, superior attitudes that have crept into the forum in recent years, especially when countering views are given.

 

[Electric Moo]

Reading back through, I guess some of my comments could be seen as condescending: if so, I apologize.

I have mixed a grand total of 1 ( ok maybe 2 ? ) surround projects, don't consider myself an expert, and initially came here just to learn how to play back my quad LP's

I was trying to be humorous by alluding to human nature & previous comments about full range mixes in the LFE & also the huge range of calibration issues with playback. But to be honest I'm not familiar with much of that, personally. Just shooting the breeze with everyone, I guess?

Anyway, I'll try to be more aware of that in the future: I do joke around a lot but never intend any negativity, my intent is always to cheer & amuse.

 

[Electric Moo]

Ah, I was replying. Well fair enough, I'm glad you raised the issue!

 

[mandrix]

Reading back through, I guess some of my comments could be seen as condescending: if so, I apologize.

I have mixed a grand total of 1 ( ok maybe 2 ? ) surround projects, don't consider myself an expert, and initially came here just to learn how to play back my quad LP's

I was trying to be humorous by alluding to human nature & previous comments about full range mixes in the LFE & also the huge range of calibration issues with playback. But to be honest I'm not familiar with much of that, personally. Just shooting the breeze with everyone, I guess?

Anyway, I'll try to be more aware of that in the future: I do joke around a lot but never intend any negativity, my intent is always to cheer & amuse.

No worries. I'm not going to go back weeks or months or any other time and single people out. I don't see that as helping anyone. Maybe I came off too forceful but the general intent remains. There are always going to be smart people, and there are always going to be smarter people. I can live with my shortcomings and I frequently DO benefit from other people's posts. But no one wants the sort of "pile on" I've seen at times, which sometimes appear to be more about who's smarter than dispensing any sort of useful information. I generally keep my mouth shut, and don't usually take things personally but I've seen a disturbing trend in recent times and I don't like it. If you think someone is wrong-that's OK! Even when you know you're right it's no reason to act all pissy. Stating known facts is alright on the surface, but the way it's delivered some times leaves a lot to be desired. Sometimes 2 people with seemingly equal knowledge will have a discussion that might appear a little heated but not necessarily nasty or involving others and I think that's fine, two equals stating their points of view in a discussion.
But that's all I'm going to say, I just felt a need and certainly don't want to argue with anyone or single anyone out.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

It's not really about this thread, but more like generalized crap I'm tired of on QQ as a whole.
I don't mind being "educated" about things to an extent, what I don't like is the smug, superior attitudes that have crept into the forum in recent years, especially when countering views are given.

IMHO Mr Zuckerman and his competitors have a lot to answer for in that regard.

Encouraging intelligent adults who should know better, me included, in shoot-from-the-hip, off-the-top-of-my-head comments.
Thinking middle-school playground banter & yeah-but-what-about-ism moves a worthwhile discussion forward.

Today's Doonesbury comic: Grandma considers getting on social media at last
Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for February 20, 2022 | GoComics.com

Grandma: What do I get out of all that?
Grandkid: Best case? The approval of strangers.