Matrix vs Discrete

[MidiMagic]

I was not referring to 'reading' data only 'storing' data. As I mentioned before, there's no excuse storing data on old types of media!

The problem there is that the average businessman stores the material on the latest technology available at that time.
Then he puts it in a vault and forgets it.
It is only when he needs it years later that he finds out the new computers can't read the old files or run the old software.

And if you are doing scientific work, you have to use exactly the same equipment and software (or exact replacements) for the entire run of your work on one study, according to ceteris paribus rules. The computer business world does not want science to be done.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

The problem there is that the average businessman stores the material on the latest technology available at that time.
Then he puts it in a vault and forgets it.
It is only when he needs it years later that he finds out the new computers can't read the old files or run the old software.

I didnt know this was a thread about the average builsnessman or vaults. I thought it had something to do with matrix vs discrete audio.

 

[chucky3042]

I am with the great Sonik. I think we have wandered off course on a very relevant subject.

 

[kfbkfb]

RE: Surround Master tech:

Over 50 years ago, Sausui was anxious to show that QS offered (w/variomatrix decoding) directionality rivaling discrete quad, could the SM variable matrix tech have been implemented in 1973 (in a consumer priced product, not a high priced laboratory device)?

If so, I wonder why Sansui didn't use the SM type tech to make QS variomatirx decoding even better (offering directionality rivaling discrete quad)?


Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

RE: Surround Master tech:

Over 50 years ago, Sausui was anxious to show that QS offered (w/variomatrix decoding) directionality rivaling discrete quad, could the SM variable matrix tech have been implemented in 1973 (in a consumer priced product, not a high priced laboratory device)?

If so, I wonder why Sansui didn't use the SM type tech to make QS variomatirx decoding even better (offering directionality rivaling discrete quad)?


Kirk Bayne

I think the answer is no as the first 2 prototypes of the SM were analogue and the complexity made it impossible to maintain tolerances. The only way we could pack it all in was with digital DSP

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I didnt know this was a thread about the average builsnessman or vaults. I thought it had something to do with matrix vs discrete audio.

Agreed... It all went wrong from here: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/matrix-vs-discrete.36282/page-7#post-793397

But it is 'his topic' to screw up

 

[MidiMagic]

I didnt know this was a thread about the average builsnessman or vaults. I thought it had something to do with matrix vs discrete audio.

This happens to ANYONE who stores data in files and expects to read them 20 years later.

I was referring to this:
SeeMoreDigital said:

"There's no excuse keeping old digital data on tape drives, floppy discs, CD's etc. It's should be the responsibility of businesses and authorities to transfer their data to newer storage mediums as they become available. I used to do this with all the businesses I worked at. Indeed, I've still got a USB connected floppy drive reader somewhere."

But you don't just copy files to new media. You also have to convert them to be read with the newest software. And you have to do it every time Microsoft upgrades the OS. But many times it can't be done because nothing is available to replace your old software.

And most people don't know they need to do that.

END of this deviation from main topic.

 

[jaybird100]

I'm sure that they will outlive all of us. I've replace capacitors in some for better sound, rarely because they are actually bad. You can often get vintage equipement cheap enough that you can hedge your bet by getting a spare.

Great to hear that you are (close to) getting a couple of Surround Masters.

I have two SM's; a v.3, which is on my system now, and a v.2, as a standby. These things are freakin' fantastic!

 

[jaybird100]

It's actually not that difficult, though I can't say whether any of them are any good.

Many of the new Technics turntables offer 78 ripm. I'd hardly call them not good.

 

[atrocity]

Many of the new Technics turntables offer 78 ripm. I'd hardly call them not good.

I was thinking of all the cheap junk that keeps showing up in Target and places like that.

But after making that post I finally gave in to temptation and bought a new Audio-Technica with 78 speed and quartz lock and I love it. One quirk is that it really does run at 78.00 and not the 78.26 appropriate for 60Hz regions or the 77.92 appropriate for 50Hz, but the difference is inaudible. And since I only play 78s for the purpose of digitization, it's also very easy to make that tiny little inaudible correction in software, which of course I have to do because I'm just a little bit obsessive. (Ask me about how much thought I've given to what part of Japan a particular record may have been recorded in so I can determine whether 77.92 or 78.26 is appropriate...)

 

[MidiMagic]

The NAB agreement specifies 78.26.

This is because a stroboscope disc can be made for 60Hz where the pattern stops at that speed. Such a disc is used to test the speed.

A turntable can turn at any speed based on the driving and driven element diameters. Only a strobe disc is locked to line frequency.

The difference between those speeds is 0.43%

 

[atrocity]

The NAB agreement specifies 78.26.

This is because a stroboscope disc can be made for 60Hz where the pattern stops at that speed. Such a disc is used to test the speed.

A turntable can turn at any speed based on the driving and driven element diameters. Only a strobe disc is locked to line frequency.

The difference between those speeds is 0.43%

Alternative explanation (I have no idea which is true):
https://pspatialaudio.com/speeds.htm

"Motor speeds were standardised in the pre-LP era. In 60 Hz regions a two-pole, AC synchronous motor running at 3600 RPM geared down by a 46:1 ratio will produce 78.26 RPM. In regions that use 50 Hz current, the standard 77.92 RPM is derived from a two-pole, 3000 RPM motor and a 77:2 ratio. The advantage of 33⅓ RPM is that it divides exactly into 3000 and 3600, so the speed is precise in regions which have either a 50Hz or a 60Hz AC supply."

Multiple stroboscopic discs showed the new A-T turntable running just very slightly shy of 78.26, so I wrote to A-T to ask if they could tell me the exact speed to two decimal places. I was pleasantly surprised when I got this response:

"78.00 RPM

Note that there can be very slight variations in measurements depending on the test record / tone used. This is due to things like the center hole in the record being slightly off or a warp in the record that changes the pitch ever so slightly. Since the speed of the AT-LP120XUSB is controlled by a microprocessor and is constantly being adjusted, the speed is held to 78.00 RPM."

 

[MidiMagic]

Alternative explanation (I have no idea which is true):
https://pspatialaudio.com/speeds.htm

"Motor speeds were standardised in the pre-LP era. In 60 Hz regions a two-pole, AC synchronous motor running at 3600 RPM geared down by a 46:1 ratio will produce 78.26 RPM. In regions that use 50 Hz current, the standard 77.92 RPM is derived from a two-pole, 3000 RPM motor and a 77:2 ratio. The advantage of 33⅓ RPM is that it divides exactly into 3000 and 3600, so the speed is precise in regions which have either a 50Hz or a 60Hz AC supply."

Multiple stroboscopic discs showed the new A-T turntable running just very slightly shy of 78.26, so I wrote to A-T to ask if they could tell me the exact speed to two decimal places. I was pleasantly surprised when I got this response:

"78.00 RPM

Note that there can be very slight variations in measurements depending on the test record / tone used. This is due to things like the center hole in the record being slightly off or a warp in the record that changes the pitch ever so slightly. Since the speed of the AT-LP120XUSB is controlled by a microprocessor and is constantly being adjusted, the speed is held to 78.00 RPM."

The 46 is also half the number of bars on the strobe disc.

If you are not using gears, you can get any ratio. Remember the phono pitch controls with conical drive spindles.

 

[MidiMagic]

Where are you getting the Dolby Atmos recordings? I haven't seen them in stores.

I have now actually found an Atmos recording in a Wal Mart:

BluRay combo of Dune (2021) And Dune Two (2024) discs.
The DVD version of this set has Dolby 5.1 instead.

I also now own an RCA to HDMI converter and an HDMI to RCA converter (made by ONN, $15 each).

 

[MidiMagic]

The problem there is that the average businessman stores the material on the latest technology available at that time.
Then he puts it in a vault and forgets it.
It is only when he needs it years later that he finds out the new computers can't read the old files or run the old software.

And if you are doing scientific work, you have to use exactly the same equipment and software (or exact replacements) for the entire run of your work on one study, according to ceteris paribus rules. The computer business world does not want science to be done.

And Microsoft is doing the horrid thing to us again - retiring Windows 10 in October.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

And Microsoft is doing the horrid thing to us again - retiring Windows 10 in October.

I always love it when someone replies to their own post!

 

[Owen Smith]

And Microsoft is doing the horrid thing to us again - retiring Windows 10 in October.

I thought it was October 2025?

EDIT: it is October 2025 end of life for Windows 10.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Lol. Some people over on the Doom9 forum are still moaning about the lack of support for Windows 7...

 

[par4ken]

Lol. Some people over on the Doom9 forum are still moaning about the lack of support for Windows 7...

I like still like Windows 7. I wish that we could go back. I use a start menu Classic Shell on Windows 10 that looks like Windows 7! It hasn't been updated since December 2017 but I'm still using it without issue.

 

[Owen Smith]

I like still like Windows 7. I wish that we could go back.

Yes, 7 is the best version of Windows since XP.