Matrix vs Discrete

[Sonik Wiz]

That sounds to me like the images would move about when on a QS decoder.

The images move about only as intended.

 

[MidiMagic]

When the eclipse happened in April, I saw another case of discrete vs matrix.

Human color vision is a matrix system. Digital cameras are discrete.

I took some photos during totality. The photos did not at all match what I saw visually.

I saw color in the totality part of the eclipse. The outer edge of the corona was bluish, and a bright red solar flare appeared during totality.

The digital camera recorded all of it as a uniform white.

At high and low signal levels, the matrix outperforms discrete by displaying the colors.

The three digital color channels are red, green, and blue.

The matrix channels in human vision are:
- Luminance (R+G+B)
- Blue-Yellow (B-(R+G)/2)
- Green-Red (G-R)

 

[fredblue]

I'm familiar with their products. The issue is that most modern AVRs only have digital multichannel inputs. For such owners wanting to integrate analog multichannel into their digital systems, an HDMI output multichannel ADC is needed. My AVR does have an analog 7.1 input, but it is strictly a straight-through input that does not get digitized, and therefore doesn't go through the built-in room correction. I don't want to set up an entire separate device with another room correction profile; I just want to use what I already have for all my sources, including quad tapes.

does any manufacturer have a model of AVR with analogue MultiCh Input that gets digitised and room corrected and isn't purely a passthrough?

 

[fredblue]

Malcolm Lear's shadow vector decoder can send the decoded output using ADAT over toslink. I don't know what bit depth and sampling frequency, but given this is for legacy analogue formats I can't imagine there's any benefit going above 44.1 or 48kHz. Possibly even 32kHz would be sufficient to be honest. I appreciate 24 bit makes headroom for the ADCs and processing easier, but ultimately 16 bit over the output should be more than enough for legacy analogue formats if the levels are set correctly. And four lossless 24/48 fits in toslink bandwidth given that two 24/96 does.

The problem with ADAT over toslink is I'm not convinced any AVR can accept it as input. I've seen no mention of any of them accepting it.

i fiddle-farted about with a Fostex VC-8 ADC to just this end and got no more than 2 channels from the Optical output

 

[fredblue]

I have the latest from Dolby, DTS and Auro. But my AVR has no multi channel analogue inputs (still hoping for analogue to HDMI convertor for that) and I have no legacy decoders or modern quad decoders (was hoping to get Shadow Vector from Malcolm Lear but that seems stuck in eternal limbo).

i'm maybe somewhat to blame for further delays as the plan for a while has been to get together with Malcolm but frankly i have had the year from Hell (and we're only halfway through! ) that got off to a dreadful start on the 4th of January with the sudden unexpected death of my gorgeous Mum and just have been so engrossed in work, sorting the estate, relocating what's left of the family, etc., even taking a 3 day break away from London last week resulted in me getting scammed on holiday, it's just been a relentlessly abysmal time with no let up but as soon as i turn the corner and can give him (and it!) the proper time and attention it deserves, i would absolutely love to check out Malcolm's Shadow Vector!

 

[JediJoker]

does any manufacturer have a model of AVR with analogue MultiCh Input that gets digitised and room corrected and isn't purely a passthrough?

Not without dropping megabucks on the likes of a Trinnov pre/pro, and then you'd still need amplification. (Cheapest U.S. base price I can find is an eye-watering $23K. )

So sorry to hear about your hellish year. All my best for things to turn around soon.

 

[chucky3042]

That sounds to me like the images would move about when on a QS decoder.

Nup they are dead steady with zero smear. It only reduces the coefficients when there is minimal surround content

 

[Owen Smith]

I saw color in the totality part of the eclipse. The outer edge of the corona was bluish, and a bright red solar flare appeared during totality.

The digital camera recorded all of it as a uniform white.

Sounds more like the camera was over exposed so all colours read as maximum, resulting in white. There are plenty of photos of that eclipse showing red flares, including some my colleagues at work took.

Digital cameras have greater colour sensitivity than the human eye. It is very common observing aurora to barely be able to see it by eye and only see green, but a digital photo of the same thing shows reds as well and more of the aurora.

 

[vinylguy4]

does any manufacturer have a model of AVR with analogue MultiCh Input that gets digitised and room corrected and isn't purely a passthrough?

NAD has 2 models with analog inputs and does have Dirac(for digital input). Would use bass and treble adjustments for analog input. The only feature I wish it had is DSD over HDMI.

 

[MidiMagic]

Sounds more like the camera was over exposed so all colours read as maximum, resulting in white. There are plenty of photos of that eclipse showing red flares, including some my colleagues at work took.

Digital cameras have greater colour sensitivity than the human eye. It is very common observing aurora to barely be able to see it by eye and only see green, but a digital photo of the same thing shows reds as well and more of the aurora.

It was overexposed. This happened because the camera I used averages the light over the entire field of view to set exposure, rather than using the brightest light in the field of view.

But notice that the same light that overexposed the digital photo did NOT overexpose my eyes. The color matrix was still working, and the corona did not seem to be overly bright.

The color sensitivity of the human eye at low light levels is zero. There is only one light-sensitive element for very low light levels. Its sensitivity peaks in the cyan part of the spectrum, but it encodes as white.

 

[MidiMagic]

Nup they are dead steady with zero smear. It only reduces the coefficients when there is minimal surround content

How is this done?

 

[chucky3042]

How is this done?

Really fast in 3 bands, see attached patent.

 

[kfbkfb]

IIRC, (some) Sansui QS professional encoders had "far left" and "far right" inputs (which went directly to stereo L and R) in addition to the LF,RF,LB,RB quad inputs.

I found this out due to an article in Billboard mag - CBS said some of the Sansui QS encoders used by FM stereo radio stations were connected so that the stereo content went to LF and RF, reducing the FM stereo broadcast stereo separation to ~8dB and used this info to try to get Sansui QS encoders removed from FM stereo radio stations.


Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

Really fast in 3 bands, see attached patent.

Oh there is a second more basic patent that forms the initial structure of this patent

 

[Owen Smith]

It was overexposed. This happened because the camera I used averages the light over the entire field of view to set exposure, rather than using the brightest light in the field of view.

There are plenty of digital cameras with more options in the exposure systems. Or you could have set the exposure manually, as I did when I took aurora photographs.

Or use film instead of digital, since film has far wider exposure latitude and in particular is much more tolerant of over exposure. NASA high speed cameras covering rocket launches still use film, because they can see so much more detail in the rocket exhaust plume and still correctly expose the rocket itself.

But notice that the same light that overexposed the digital photo did NOT overexpose my eyes. The color matrix was still working, and the corona did not seem to be overly bright.

The exposure latitude of the human eye is enormous.

The color sensitivity of the human eye at low light levels is zero. There is only one light-sensitive element for very low light levels. Its sensitivity peaks in the cyan part of the spectrum, but it encodes as white.

I'm aware of the difference between rod and cone cells. And note there are some people with an extra set of colour receptors who can perceive more colours.

I think trying to use how the human eye works to make points about matrix audio encoding is stretching things way beyond breaking point. It is irrelevant.

 

[barfle]

Really fast in 3 bands, see attached patent.

Oh, god, the nightmares of working at the Patent Office will haunt me for weeks!

 

[par4ken]

Really fast in 3 bands, see attached patent.

But does the triple band encode smear the image when decoded by a single band processor?

I suspect not by much as the midband is where most of the action happens?

 

[atrocity]

NAD has 2 models with analog inputs and does have Dirac(for digital input). Would use bass and treble adjustments for analog input. The only feature I wish it had is DSD over HDMI.

I do like my NAD T 758 V3i, which I bought specifically due to the multi analog in. In fact, I like it so much that after well over a year I still haven't fooled around with Dirac because I loved the sound right out of the box.

My only complaint is that once in a while if I turn off the TV without turning off the NAD, once I turn the TV back on the color over HDMI will be hopelessly screwed up until I power cycle the NAD. The NAD's HDMI is supposed to be straight passthrough (i.e., there's no onboard video processing, which amongst other things means that it NEVER overlays crap on the screen that I didn't ask for), so I don't know why or how this happens. I just chalk it up to the general reality that HDMI is, in my experience, very often Satan's rectal afterbirth.

 

[DuncanS]

I do like my NAD T 758 V3i, which I bought specifically due to the multi analog in. In fact, I like it so much that after well over a year I still haven't fooled around with Dirac because I loved the sound right out of the box.

My only complaint is that once in a while if I turn off the TV without turning off the NAD, once I turn the TV back on the color over HDMI will be hopelessly screwed up until I power cycle the NAD. The NAD's HDMI is supposed to be straight passthrough (i.e., there's no onboard video processing, which amongst other things means that it NEVER overlays crap on the screen that I didn't ask for), so I don't know why or how this happens. I just chalk it up to the general reality that HDMI is, in my experience, very often Satan's rectal afterbirth.

HDMI can power sections of equipment even when it is turned off. It is possible via leakage currents to keep 'unwanted parts' partially powered but not enough to function, it depends on how well the circuitry has been designed to handle driving powered down devices (we usually use ICs that isolate the interfaces - if not, it often stops a piece of equipment powering up correctly, sometimes a microprocessor doesn't boot up properly) so it could be the TV or the NAD causing the issue - even though you have to power cycle the NAD.

 

[chucky3042]

Oh, god, the nightmares of working at the Patent Office will haunt me for weeks!

We have spent around $1M on patents