Mix differences between SQ lp and Quad 8-track versions of the same recording.

[ar surround]

I think the mix that was released (on the AF SACD) is unsuitable for SQ, because there's so much 'blended' instrumentation. The '2nd unreleased' version on the Robin reel probably would've worked better as everything is hard-panned.

Yes, that’s what you said and I edited my above post. I haven’t listened to the AF SACD since hearing the unreleased version...mainly because of the hack job on the singles tracks.

 

[jaybird100]

The head of Sony wanted it to hold a complete symphony (Beethoven?) in stereo with 16-bits, I did read that Quad/Surround was considered. But it was down to the disc size (had to fit into a car dashboard slot) and manufacture (stamped like vinyl! & single layer) and the laser technology at the time (not good enough or higher frequency light {so better resolution}).

The original CD was supposed to be a 4 inch disc, with up to an hour of playing time. Akio Morita, then head of Sony, said that he wanted it to be a disc that could hold the entirety of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, which runs well over an hour. To have done quad on a CD then would have halved the playing time per disc, and by that time, interest in quad was almost non-existent. The SACD was a logical progression, but wasn't originally intended to go beyond stereo. Sony did go with surround on SACD, but, true to form, Sony abandoned the technology. Now, mostly by the graces of independent labels, it still exists.

 

[fredblue]

i remember Brian Moura saying that Philips were the driving force behind SACDs being MultiCh Hybrid, where we'd be if it had just been a Sony venture i shudder to think..

(where is Brian btw? haven't seen him here for a while.. hope he's ok!)

 

[J. PUPSTER]

i remember Brian Moura saying that Philips were the driving force behind SACDs being MultiCh Hybrid, where we'd be if it had just been a Sony venture i shudder to think..

(where is Brian btw? haven't seen him here for a while.. hope he's ok!)

+1 @bmoura

 

[par4ken]

The original CD was supposed to be a 4 inch disc, with up to an hour of playing time. Akio Morita, then head of Sony, said that he wanted it to be a disc that could hold the entirety of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, which runs well over an hour. To have done quad on a CD then would have halved the playing time per disc, and by that time, interest in quad was almost non-existent. The SACD was a logical progression, but wasn't originally intended to go beyond stereo. Sony did go with surround on SACD, but, true to form, Sony abandoned the technology. Now, mostly by the graces of independent labels, it still exists.

I would of liked to of seen say about a 7" disc, it would of had a lot more playing time. I guess they wanted to keep it small for use in cars and portable devices. AS I recall the original standard allowed for discrete quad as well as stereo but quad was never used and then was dropped from the standard. Pity.

 

[JediJoker]

Sony did go with surround on SACD, but, true to form, Sony abandoned the technology. Now, mostly by the graces of independent labels, it still exists.

Sony Japan still enthusiastically support SACD.

 

[jaybird100]

Sony Japan still enthusiastically support SACD.

So does Sony think it won't sell here? Granted, it wouldn't be in the same numbers as regular CD's, but hybrid discs play on regular CD players, too, so why didn't they pursue that approach? Their earlier SACD's weren't hybrid. That could be called one shot in the foot. They didn't support it as well as they should have for car use. They only offered a handful of models. I don't think I saw any other manufacturers offer head units with SACD, either. I doubt Sony will ever start pushing SACD in North America again, as they are in Japan.

 

[jaybird100]

I have a Harman Kardon 75+ quad receiver. I've got a turntable and a Panasonic RS-845 quad 8-track tape player hooked up to it. The amplifier has a mode selection switch which includes the options mono, stereo, SQ matrix 1, SQ matrix 2, enhanced stereo 4-ch discrete. I'm basing this discussion on the Columbia SQ lp and quad 8-track tape version of the Broadway revival cast recording of "No, No, Nanette" (1971). When I listen to the 8-track tape using the 4-ch discrete mode, the mix is fantastic. On numbers with the chorus, the voices come from the back channels and don't exist on the front channels. The tap dancing goes from front left to front right to rear right to rear left. It's incredible to listen to. When I listen to the SQ lp using either one of the SQ matrix modes, the back channels seem to exist only to provide a kind of theatre sound effect. There isn't any remarkable front/back separation. I'm new to quad. I've always been interested in it but never had the time or money. I decided to start out with quad 8-track tapes - but the selection is very limited and, many times, lp tracks were left off for space reasons. In the last few weeks, I decided to try out a few lps - starting with SQ lps because it's less complicated to get going with. I know this is old technology, but does anyone out there have any words of wisdom regarding whether or not SQ lp's did not produce the same effects as their quad 8-track tape counterparts? Could it be that something is wrong with the SQ matrix functionality of my receiver?

I don't think HK used any logic circuitry in their SQ decoding. That said, one of the main reasons for the difference in the mixes between the SQ LP and the Q8 tape were that, for the LP, the recording was mixed to deal with the limitations of the SQ matrix. By emphasizing left to right separation, front to rear separation was limited to only 3dB. Fancy logic circuitry was needed to "boost" this separation, but there were audible artifacts there. By the time really decent decoders hit the market, namely the Tate units, quad had basically become a non-entity.

 

[JediJoker]

I doubt Sony will ever start pushing SACD in North America again, as they are in Japan.

The Japanese market is still quite enamored of physical digital media, unlike most of the West.

 

[MidiMagic]

If by “was replacing” you mean “began selling”. Pre-recorded 8-tracks were widely sold until 1982. For at least half that time, they continued to outsell cassettes.

But that’s not even the point. It’s not about “pushing” Q8 over SQ. Q8 was an established, practical format. SQ wasn’t and never would or even could be. All formats have a limited lifespan and get replaced. 8-track‘s run from 1970-1982 wasn’t bad. The smart corporate move is to go with whatever proves out in the marketplace, even if it’s not your baby. Even Sony had to give up on Beta.

By "replacing", I meant what players were being put into new cars. My used '76 Cutlass Supreme came new from the factory with a cassette player in it.

I didn't mean the lifespan of the 8-track format. I meant that each 8-track cartridge rubbed the layers of tape against each other as it played, wearing itself out, shedding oxide from the tape, and slowly reducing the high frequency content of the tape through magnetic interaction between layers.

Nothing lasts forever. I just heard on TV that scientists have determined that the moon is rusting.

 

[MidiMagic]

I would of liked to of seen say about a 7" disc, it would of had a lot more playing time. I guess they wanted to keep it small for use in cars and portable devices. AS I recall the original standard allowed for discrete quad as well as stereo but quad was never used and then was dropped from the standard. Pity.

I have read the CD standard. It does have a quadraphonic mode. Nobody ever used it and players were not equipped to use it.

A 7" disc would have required a player that was too big for standard automobile radio/player holders.

The design of the original CD was 74 minutes of playing time so Beethoven's 9th Symphony could exist in its entirety on one side. I bought it as one of my first CDs just for that purpose. The SQ LP version I have uses 2 sides, with the 4th movement on the second side. My grandfather had a 16-side set of 12" 78s of that symphony.

 

[Circular Vibes]

The self titled album, as I recall has only one or two SQ tracks on it. The rest are actually just stereo, which is why I never bothered to get it and just played the greatest hits.

I think what you are referring to is the stereo issue that had Dynaco encoding on one track before SQ existed.
Blood, Sweat & Tears. Columbia PC-9270 (DY)
{Only one cut "Spinning Wheel" is encoded}
copied from thesurround discography.

 

[marcb]

I would of liked to of seen say about a 7" disc, it would of had a lot more playing time. I guess they wanted to keep it small for use in cars and portable devices. AS I recall the original standard allowed for discrete quad as well as stereo but quad was never used and then was dropped from the standard. Pity.

IIRC, the size chosen largely revolved around being able to hold the disc easily in a hand.

 

[Marcsten]

As I say, I don't own it, so I am referring to the Larry Cliffton Quad Incorporated manual which I just dug out of my junk, I mean, 'archives" and it reflects the the only song actually encoded into SQ on the self title album is Spinning Wheel.

I always assumed they were the same. The ones where I owned both sounded the same, but that was a pretty small sample. I think the only thing they did to help out the logic circuitry was to boost the midrange compared to the stereo LP. And although they may have adjusted the mix to work better with the decoders, I always thought that the Q8 version was the same.

To return to my 'fixation' with the first BS and T title, after reading this discussion, I happened across an SQ copy on Ebay and bought it. It arrived today. Took the disc out to look at the condition which is superb, and...every song has what I call the SQ Swirls. This is encouraging! Maybe the whole album is SQ and Larry Clifton was wrong. Looking at the jacket a previous owner has written in pen "Only Spinning Wheel is SQ encoded." This is not so encouraging. Only one way to find out. Switch on the tate. Happy to say all songs are quite SQ. In fact, some songs not on the greatest hits have much better mixes than their counterparts on greatest hits. Smiling Phases for one is very discrete with localization of several instruments in one or the other rear. Now it always seemed nuts to me that they would encode the greatest hits, such as some of the mixes are, and then release the first album with stereo for most. Made no sense. Half the album is on greatest hits anyways! As a footnote, my copy is a Canadian pressing. I have always preferred them to ours. The surfaces seem quieter and although I admit it may be all in my head, seems that the tate works better with Canadian pressings when I have had both. Be that as it may, mystery solved. This is 100% encoded. I stand corrected after about 40 years of being wrong. My ex wives would be happy to hear me say that.

 

[par4ken]

Funny how rumours or wrong notions get started. I suppose that confusion started as Quad Incorporated lists the SQ album as BS&T II for the SQ version but as BS&T for the stereo version version (with the Dyna track). The SQ copy is 100% SQ. One Dyna track "Spinning Wheel" is reported to be on the stereo LP.
And yes generally Canadian pressings are better than their US counterparts, possibly due to a lower production run?

 

[Soundfield]

The original CD was supposed to be a 4 inch disc, with up to an hour of playing time. Akio Morita, then head of Sony, said that he wanted it to be a disc that could hold the entirety of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, which runs well over an hour.

Something of an urban myth I'm afraid.

The CD standard was jointly developed by Sony and Philips. Philips proposed a 11.5 cm disc, while Sony wanted a 10 cm one. Philips' chief engineer at the time, Kees Immink, is reported as saying that 12cm was the size compromised on because it was a neutral size, being neither Sony's nor Philips' first preference. It had nothing to do with Akio Morita or the length of Beethoven's 9th symphony.

 

[furui_suterioo]

I was watching Modern Marvels the other day on TV about the development of CDs and they said the Beethoven's 9th thing.

 

[Soundfield]

I was watching Modern Marvels the other day on TV about the development of CDs and they said the Beethoven's 9th thing.

Yup, that's how fake news gets promulgated!

 

[Doug G.]

But, do all of Beethoven's OTHER symphonies fit on one CD?



Doug

 

[Marcsten]

I don't recall hearing much about Japanese involvement in the CD. It was always known as a Phillips deal, although that may have just been the final product. I had never even heard the Beethoven's 9th story. But then I have the 9th in SQ on Angel records so that wouldn't have interested me! LOL