HiRez Poll O'Jays, The - SHIP AHOY [SACD]

[sjcorne]

Easy 10. This is definitely the best disc in the entire Sony single-layer multichannel series. One of the best quad mixes ever, and the sound quality is astonishing. Do whatever you can to get your hands on this.

 

[quicksrt]

It turned out channels were not swapped, and it’s mixed with some z pans in fact? I think that was a conclusion not addressed in this thread, but another. So any channel corrected copies around are actually screwed up now? I’m trying to keep this stuff straight.

 

[quicksrt]

But still just about the best R&B surround mix ever done? Way up there in top 5

 

[sjcorne]

It turned out channels were not swapped, and it’s mixed with some z pans in fact? I think that was a conclusion not addressed in this thread, but another.

Here's @steelydave's post from the thread in question. Several of the other Philadelphia International quad mixes I've heard (Harold Melvin's Black & Blue, MFSB's Love Is The Message, etc) also have diagonal movements or diagonally-panned information.

As Adam said, and I mentioned in another thread a while back, I've been speaking to Arthur Stoppe, who started at Sigma Sound as an assistant engineer in 1973. He assisted on all the PIR quad mixes (as well as the Spinners CD-4 quad mixes) and quickly became Sigma's go-to guy when it came to quad mixing, because he learned about all the technical limitations of SQ matrix quad. By 1975 he was Sigma's main quad engineer and did the final quad mixes competed at the studio, including MFSB's 'Philadelphia Freedom' and The O'Jays 'Family Reunion' in 1975, and Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes 'Wake Up Everybody' and The O'Jays 'Message In The Music' in 1976.

I'll include some quotes from Arthur below, but in a nutshell I have to eat a whole lot of crow, because I was wrong about the diagonal instrument and vocal placement being a mistake - at least in the case of the Philadelphia International quad mixes.

The purpose of these 'diagonal pans' is indeed to create a phantom center in the middle of the room, or "quad center" as Arthur calls it, within the limitations of SQ. The conventional way to place something at quad center is to put it in equal power in all 4 channels, and you see this often with lead vocals in quad mixes done where there aren't any matrix limitations, like the stuff from RCA, W/E/A, and all the tape-only mixes done for Ampex. However with SQ, you can't have identical content in the two rear speakers at the same time (which you'd obviously need if you wanted to have identical content in all 4 speakers) so the MacGyver-ed solution was the diagonal placement - it would (sort of) put the sound in the middle of the room without breaking the rules of SQ.

It's worth noting, as well, that (at least in the mixes I've heard) when they used this diagonal 'quad center' method, it was to put a mono sound in the middle of the room - for example on Ship Ahoy they use it to put the bass guitar in quad center on a couple of tracks, and the bass voice on a couple of tracks (most notably on 'Don't Call Me Brother'). They don't use it for any diagonal stereo mixing, ie. you don't get half a drum kit (or horn section) in the front left and the other half in the rear right.

This is what Arthur had to say:

In SQ the only “legal” method for placing something in quad center was the diagonal left front/right rear or right front/left rear. We used to do that a lot with the bass or kick drum.

What you wanted to avoid was common mode material in the two rear channels. Since the SQ encoding phase shift between the two rear channels was in the opposite direction, if you had something panned center rear the two channels would be totally out of phase and would cancel in mono and sound really weird in stereo. But the big problem would be that that any common material between the two rear channels would, due to the 45/45 stereo system for LP (which actually cuts the two channels out of phase so that any common front channel material cuts as pure side-to-side modulation) caused pure vertical modulation in the groove of the cut record. And since there’s only so far up or down the stylus could move without either lifting off the surface or diving into the aluminum substrate of the master lacquer disk, that was a huge no-no. If you had a stereo element in your mix, –say a drum kit or grand piano, it had to be panned across the front two channels, –not the back channels.

At first, in order to maximize the apparent separation in an SQ quad mix the “experts” said you should only pan to the four corners or center front. Later on they got a bit more liberal with things, so you could have stereo material panned anywhere across the two front channels. But center rear was still off limits for the reason of it causing excess vertical modulation in the record groove.

I have to say that personally I don't really love this approach - it kinda works if you're sitting right in the sweet spot, but if you're near the back, or to one side, the soundfield gets confusing. But understanding the philosophy behind it, and the limitations of the SQ format, means it makes a lot more sense. Even 40 years after the fact, Arthur's memory about these things is strikingly clear so I have no problem at all accepting his account as definitive. In fact, when I originally contacted him I didn't realise how central he was to Sigma's quad output - I was just hoping he'd have some vague memories - but it turns out there was no one more involved with quad at the studio than he was.

 

[quicksrt]

Here's @steelydave's post from the thread in question. Several of the other Philadelphia International quad mixes I've heard (Harold Melvin's Black & Blue, MFSB's Love Is The Message, etc) also have diagonal movements or diagonally-panned information.

So the short version is yes, you agree with me. Ok.

 

[fredblue]

Here's @steelydave's post from the thread in question. Several of the other Philadelphia International quad mixes I've heard (Harold Melvin's Black & Blue, MFSB's Love Is The Message, etc) also have diagonal movements or diagonally-panned information.

i wonder if Arthur Stoppe has heard any of his work on the Vocalion SACDs...

 

[ssully]

If speaker distance compensation (delay) works properly (and isn't asked to fix extreme placement), 'quad center' should work pretty well even when the listener isn't physically "quad center", no?

 

[Goona]

Automatic 10 for me . Love the music, love the surround love the fidelity. The track Ship Ahoy has come alive and am now hearing sounds for the first time. An abosolutely must have disc.

 

[Clement]

One of the absolute crown jewels in my collection. Growing up, this was always the O'Jays album; sure, conventional wisdom awards that distinction to Back Stabbers, but i was always drawn to the more overt political orientation of this release. I had never heard it in quad, and when i learned of its existence (on this site!), it became my holy grail. I paid dearly for it, and i don't regret one cent i spent! It is my sincerest hope that D-V is able to put this out so more of us can enjoy this masterpiece!
Right from jump street, with brass, percussion, keys, and funky guitar assaulting me from behind and then strings swelling from the fronts and drums pounding along with Eddie Levert warming up his gospel-fueled command to put my hands together (background vocals behind shoring up his exhortation), this mix puts me right in the middle of quadraphonic bliss! And then, a marked tonal shift . . .
Ship creaking, waves crashing, storm rising, whips cracking, making their way around the soundstage, the bass comes in up front, ominous guitar makes the rounds, strings swell, vocals moan, drums pound . . . for two and a half minutes before the O'Jays articulate the words "Ship Ahoy." The song continues to build for another seven minutes and twenty seconds (it runs 9:50) of pure, unadulterated majesty and horror conveying the motion of the ocean, the cold wind blowing, riding on the wave to the land of the "free." Damn.
Fast forward more than 350 years to the driving Philly-soul of "This Air I Breathe." The scope and breadth of the message music matches the inventiveness and impact of the quad mix that continues to impress and surprise.
Even the love songs have a social bent: "You Got Your Hooks In Me" takes on envy and jealousy with Eddie Levert's plaintive vocals conveying pain and passion. And just when i didn't think the mix could be more alive, here comes track five:
"For The Love Of Money"! Check out @steelydave POST and @fredblue POST for a blow-by-blow breakdown of the brilliance of the mix. Form ever follows function, and the mix makes this one of the greatest quad experiences in my collection--sonic nirvana, indeed!
The ebb and flow of the experience that is Ship Ahoy continues with the brilliant move of following "For The Love Of Money" with the smooth uplift of "Now That We Found Love" that poses the question (What are we gonna do with it?) and offers the solution (Spread it all over the land!). Right in the nick of time . . . more timeless sonic bliss surrounds me with the sound of hope and the call to action.
Action that is still needed, the sequencing of songs reminds me as "Don't Call Me Brother" comes blasting from the four corners of the room. Another long-player at just over nine minutes, ramping in successive waves of vocal build-up and vamping driven by the propulsive bass and drum march driving the message home and tying themes together (son of a sea cook, indeed!).
"People Keep Tellin' Me"brings it all to closure with a coda of uptempo Philly-soul reminding me that it's a world of contradictions and there's only one way to chase the blues away. . . . Ship Ahoy, it's you baby! A straight-up TEN!

 

[Tres Discrete]

One of the absolute crown jewels in my collection. Growing up, this was always the O'Jays album; sure, conventional wisdom awards that distinction to Back Stabbers, but i was always drawn to the more overt political orientation of this release. I had never heard it in quad, and when i learned of its existence (on this site!), it became my holy grail. I paid dearly for it, and i don't regret one cent i spent! It is my sincerest hope that D-V is able to put this out so more of us can enjoy this masterpiece!
Right from jump street, with brass, percussion, keys, and funky guitar assaulting me from behind and then strings swelling from the fronts and drums pounding along with Eddie Levert warming up his gospel-fueled command to put my hands together (background vocals behind shoring up his exhortation), this mix puts me right in the middle of quadraphonic bliss! And then, a marked tonal shift . . .
Ship creaking, waves crashing, storm rising, whips cracking, making their way around the soundstage, the bass comes in up front, ominous guitar makes the rounds, strings swell, vocals moan, drums pound . . . for two and a half minutes before the O'Jays articulate the words "Ship Ahoy." The song continues to build for another seven minutes and twenty seconds (it runs 9:50) of pure, unadulterated majesty and horror conveying the motion of the ocean, the cold wind blowing, riding on the wave to the land of the "free." Damn.
Fast forward more than 350 years to the driving Philly-soul of "This Air I Breathe." The scope and breadth of the message music matches the inventiveness and impact of the quad mix that continues to impress and surprise.
Even the love songs have a social bent: "You Got Your Hooks In Me" takes on envy and jealousy with Eddie Levert's plaintive vocals conveying pain and passion. And just when i didn't think the mix could be more alive, here comes track five:
"For The Love Of Money"! Check out @steelydave POST and @fredblue POST for a blow-by-blow breakdown of the brilliance of the mix. Form ever follows function, and the mix makes this one of the greatest quad experiences in my collection--sonic nirvana, indeed!
The ebb and flow of the experience that is Ship Ahoy continues with the brilliant move of following "For The Love Of Money" with the smooth uplift of "Now That We Found Love" that poses the question (What are we gonna do with it?) and offers the solution (Spread it all over the land!). Right in the nick of time . . . more timeless sonic bliss surrounds me with the sound of hope and the call to action.
Action that is still needed, the sequencing of songs reminds me as "Don't Call Me Brother" comes blasting from the four corners of the room. Another long-player at just over nine minutes, ramping in successive waves of vocal build-up and vamping driven by the propulsive bass and drum march driving the message home and tying themes together (son of a sea cook, indeed!).
"People Keep Tellin' Me"brings it all to closure with a coda of uptempo Philly-soul reminding me that it's a world of contradictions and there's only one way to chase the blues away. . . . Ship Ahoy, it's you baby! A straight-up TEN!

Finally got my hands on a copy of this. Wow.
I thought “Now That We Found Love” was enough to justify the price…played it about 10 times in a row.
Then… “Don’t Call Me Brother” turns out to be a show-stopper…and “Ship Ahoy” will give you chills.
I have accumulated many surround discs over the last couple of years, but this is exemplary in every regard.
I’ve never voted before, but if I can figure it out, it will be a 10.
Fabulous.

 

[fredblue]

I was listening to someone else's rip and decode of the SQ LP, I can't honestly say which country's release it was. But it matched neither a Q4 reel transfer of the US quad mix nor the UK SACD. Swapping the rears on the SACD made it match the SQ LP, and several people involved agreed.

It's been a few years since I listened to any of these so I'm not going to make any statements about what is in which speaker, too easy to get it wrong. I do recall comparing to SQ wasn't trivial because SQ decodes don't usually remove the rear information from the fronts, so anything hard rear on the SACD was mid way between rear and front on the SQ decode. But it all became much clearer once the rears were swapped.

It's surprising how many releases have the rears swapped, O'Jays Ship Ahoy SACD is another one.

the Rears are not swapped on the Ship Ahoy SACD, the diagonal pans are intentional, as confirmed by Philadelphia International's Chief Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe.

 

[Owen Smith]

the Rears are not swapped on the Ship Ahoy SACD, the diagonal pans are intentional, as confirmed by Philadelphia International's Chief Quad Engineer Arthur Stoppe.

The waves on the shore make no sense at all on the first(?) Ship Ahoy track, it's just random noise. If you swap the rears they suddenly make sense and you can tell which direction each wave is going. Admittedly for this one we did not compare to an SQ LP or any other source so we could be wrong, but the album makes a lot more sense with the rears swapped. If it's intentionally as issued on the SACD then it's stupid. Maybe they're just defending themselves and pretending they didn't make a mistake?

 

[fredblue]

The waves on the shore make no sense at all on the first(?) Ship Ahoy track, it's just random noise. If you swap the rears they suddenly make sense and you can tell which direction each wave is going. Admittedly for this one we did not compare to an SQ LP or any other source so we could be wrong, but the album makes a lot more sense with the rears swapped. If it's intentionally as issued on the SACD then it's stupid. Maybe they're just defending themselves and pretending they didn't make a mistake?

the SACD's Rears are assigned the same as the Rears on my decoded SQ LP.

 

[Owen Smith]

the SACD's Rears are assigned the same as the Rears on my decoded SQ LP.

Then it makes no sense musically, especially the waves in the opening track. Of course it's possible a mistake was made with the rears back in the 1970s and they're now claiming that's how it was meant to be.

 

[sjcorne]

Then it makes no sense musically, especially the waves in the opening track. Of course it's possible a mistake was made with the rears back in the 1970s and they're now claiming that's how it was meant to be.

Perhaps you’ll find this post enlightening:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...eassignment-recommendations.19693/post-349755

 

[fredblue]

Then it makes no sense musically, especially the waves in the opening track. Of course it's possible a mistake was made with the rears back in the 1970s and they're now claiming that's how it was meant to be.

there are no waves in the opening track, the album starts with "Put Your Hands Together". if you mean the sound effects at the beginning of the title track, then i'll give it another listen to try and see what you're referring to.

 

[Owen Smith]

there are no waves in the opening track, the album starts with "Put Your Hands Together". if you mean the sound effects at the beginning of the title track, then i'll give it another listen to try and see what you're referring to.

There are some waves washing around at the start of one of tracks. It's been a while since I listened to it and it may not be the opening track.

 

[Owen Smith]

Perhaps you’ll find this post enlightening:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...eassignment-recommendations.19693/post-349755

That talks about playing things in two diagonal channels simultaneously to put them in the centre. That isn't the issue I have with Ship Ahoy's rears. It's waves breaking that make no sense until swapped, and the walking bass guitar position at the start of Money Money Money. If you swap the rears it walks in a circle round the room which make sense, with the rears as issued it just jumps all over the place making no sense at all.

 

[sjcorne]

…with the rears as issued it just jumps all over the place making no sense at all.

In the arrangement as-is, the bass is dry when it hits the right channels and wet when it hits the left channels - that seems like an intentional move to me.

 

[fredblue]

That talks about playing things in two diagonal channels simultaneously to put them in the centre. That isn't the issue I have with Ship Ahoy's rears. It's waves breaking that make no sense until swapped, and the walking bass guitar position at the start of Money Money Money. If you swap the rears it walks in a circle round the room which make sense, with the rears as issued it just jumps all over the place making no sense at all.

my penny drop moment, from 2015, as to what was going on in the mix, using the decoded SQ LP as a reference;

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/ojays-the-ship-ahoy-sacd.3767/page-3#post-266117
the vocal refrains "for the love of money" that sweep from speaker to speaker, do so in a clockwise direction when the 4 channels are assigned as they are on both the SQ LP and the SACD.

swapping the Rears the effect is lost.

there are other Philadelphia International Quads with elements that pop up hither and thither, rather than pop up clockwise round the room, such as in Harold Melvin's Black & Blue. it's a thing PIR did on their Quads.