Penteo Pro 16 Upmix/Downmix Plug-In

[beerking]

Seriously....test before you pull the trigger!

No problem there, especially if enough interest is shown by fellow members, as Homer suggested, to get a discount larger than the one currently offered.

Has anyone compared this with the 7.1 upmixer available with JRiver?
Which is what I currently use to upmix my stored music.

 

[MC Maniac]

No problem there, especially if enough interest is shown by fellow members, as Homer suggested, to get a discount larger than the one currently offered.

Has anyone compared this with the 7.1 upmixer available with JRiver?
Which is what I currently use to upmix my stored music.

I do like JRiver - it is very respectable - I prefer Spec and Penteo as they generate more seperation and sound more 'discrete'

the other drawback with JRiver is that you cannot save the 5.1 output, which I want to make 5.1 discs for the car..

 

[HomerJAU]

especially if enough interest is shown by fellow members, as Homer suggested, to get a discount larger than the one currently offered

Looks like 3 or 4 of us have already purchased the current Black Friday special. I’m not sure who else is interested at the moment.

On a side note: I tested a Declicker for some of my vinyl rips that have clicks. Seems to do a good job. Izotope RX 7 Elements Declicker is included in a BF bundle for $49 for another week and has a 10 day fully functional trial. It’s a VST3 plug-in so works in Reaper like Penteo. If you register on the izotope website you can get the 10 trial download.

I’ve Declicked and re-upmixed about 6 albums today. Not yet done a proper side by side comparison of before and after declicking on my big 5.1 system, but on my PC it appears to remove all clicks without me hearing any artefacts or affecting the final upmix in any audible way. Further testing on my audiophile speakers at higher volumes required before giving a thumbs up. EDIT: I declicked the stereo rip prior to using Penteo.

Izotope Declicker demo: (the RX 7 Elements version does not include mouth click and breath, dewing removal:
https://ask.video/video/izotope-rx-...de-click-mouth-declick-de-crackle-interpolate

 

[HomerJAU]

I just added a new tool to MMH to aid Penteo users. Automated tagging, renaming etc of the MCH flac output files:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...helper-new-tool-to-aid-penteo-upmixers.27804/

 

[MC Maniac]

Penteo 16 Pro v2.1.1 Now Available

they made a number of improvements and fixes..

https://www.perfectsurround.com/ins...f5-9f8e9c545df2&utm_medium=mail&utm_source=so

 

[HomerJAU]

Not sure where to post this. Since it’s Penteo related I thought this thread.

I‘m using another VST plug-in to do a little phase shifting to effectively widen a stereo image prior to Penteo doing an upmix. I’m using Izotope Imager (in Izotope Ozone Standard). This is on special now for $99. It’s normally $249. Anyone doing Penteo upmixing, go buy this version now!

There is a free Imager that is limited to a single ‘change all’ mode. The Ozone Standard version has 4 user defined frequency bands which allows me to widen in those bands independently. Very useful.

Looking at Izotope Imager for a recent upmix. There was not that much info above 5kHz (top graph) (where I normally apply most phase shift/widening - see bottom left)). Also the Vectorscope was not showing that much out of phase (surround when upmixed) either. Here is what I see in Imager Standard:

This is kind of my 'standard' Izotope Imager style: No widening for bass (anchor bass in fronts), a little between 110Hz and 720Hz), more for higher frequencies.

My 'standard' starting point settings are: 0, 10.1 10.1, 33 so for this one I've tried to push this higher (above). I can see the vectorscope increasing off axis energy which pushes that to the surround channels in the Penteo upmix.

So what? Well Imager can change an upmix especially when the original stereo image is narrow (mono like, everything sounds like its coming from the phantom centre). These upmixed without Imager are fairly ordinary. Crank up the Image settings and the upmix sound way more interesting in surround. This doesn’t add audible artefacts.

I‘ve actually got to the point where I now upmix albums based on what I SEE in Imager and Penteo’s interface. I don’t listen to the upmix. I think I can get a great sounding upmix without hearing anything! Blasphemy I know. But after 4 months of upmixing I now know the visual clues and what Imager and Penteo settings to use to get a great upmix.

Ok I do listen to my upmixes afterwards, but they seldom require any change, they more often than not ’sound right’

 

[HomerJAU]

I should add Imager won’t turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse. This will make subtle changes but definitely worth while. There’s a 14 day free trial.

EDIT: The biggest (by far) influence on the final upmixes surround separation is the original engineer’s stereo mix image. A great stereo image = a great surround upmix.

 

[JonUrban]

Hear Hear Garry!

Garry let me in on this secret a while back and I have been using Ozone with his settings for a while now, combining it with Penteo and the results are really great. I just leave it in the queue with Penteo in Reaper and the upmixes I've been doing sound great.

Huge Kudo's to Garry for figuring this out, as I never would have even thought of it myself.

Ozone is a program from iZotope, the folks who also make RX-7. Very good, quality stuff that is very powerful and so sophisticated that I will never be able to fully understand either program, but you can get a grip on them just enough to actually get good results. The problem is that unless you really get into them, you will never know just how good the results could actually be!

Another nice thing about iZotope stuff is once you get the software, the future upgrades are significantly cheaper and they have frequent discounts in email offers.

 

[HomerJAU]

Imager could be used to increase image width for other upmixers too. Specweb and even prior to running a stereo album through the Surround Master. I’ve not tried but the theory is valid.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Not sure where to post this. Since it’s Penteo related I thought this thread.

I‘m using another VST plug-in to do a little phase shifting to effectively widen a stereo image prior to Penteo doing an upmix. I’m using Izotope Imager (in Izotope Ozone Standard). This is on special now for $99. It’s normally $249. Anyone doing Penteo upmixing, go buy this version now!

There is a free Imager that is limited to a single ‘change all’ mode. The Ozone Standard version has 4 user defined frequency bands which allows me to widen in those bands independently. Very useful.

Looking at Izotope Imager for a recent upmix. There was not that much info above 5kHz (top graph) (where I normally apply most phase shift/widening - see bottom left)). Also the Vectorscope was not showing that much out of phase (surround when upmixed) either. Here is what I see in Imager Standard:

This is kind of my 'standard' Izotope Imager style: No widening for bass (anchor bass in fronts), a little between 110Hz and 720Hz), more for higher frequencies.

My 'standard' starting point settings are: 0, 10.1 10.1, 33 so for this one I've tried to push this higher (above). I can see the vectorscope increasing off axis energy which pushes that to the surround channels in the Penteo upmix.

So what? Well Imager can change an upmix especially when the original stereo image is narrow (mono like, everything sounds like its coming from the phantom centre). These upmixed without Imager are fairly ordinary. Crank up the Image settings and the upmix sound way more interesting in surround. This doesn’t add audible artefacts.

I‘ve actually got to the point where I now upmix albums based on what I SEE in Imager and Penteo’s interface. I don’t listen to the upmix. I think I can get a great sounding upmix without hearing anything! Blasphemy I know. But after 4 months of upmixing I now know the visual clues and what Imager and Penteo settings to use to get a great upmix.

Ok I do listen to my upmixes afterwards, but they seldom require any change, they more often than not ’sound right’

Thanks Garry, will definitely check this out!
This sounds similar to the AA3 Stereo Pan/Expand plug-in, but perhaps with much more focused selection for specific frequency ranges; does that seem to be right to you?

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I've also, just recently realized that a lot of these iZotope plug-ins can be utilized right in Audacity as well.

 

[HomerJAU]

This sounds similar to the AA3 Stereo Pan/Expand plug-in

Probably. I’m not familiar with AA3.

I got the idea of using Imager from posts by @Sonik Wiz . Thanks SW!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Not sure where to post this. Since it’s Penteo related I thought this thread.

I‘m using another VST plug-in to do a little phase shifting to effectively widen a stereo image prior to Penteo doing an upmix. I’m using Izotope Imager (in Izotope Ozone Standard). This is on special now for $99. It’s normally $249. Anyone doing Penteo upmixing, go buy this version now!

There is a free Imager that is limited to a single ‘change all’ mode. The Ozone Standard version has 4 user defined frequency bands which allows me to widen in those bands independently. Very useful.

Looking at Izotope Imager for a recent upmix. There was not that much info above 5kHz (top graph) (where I normally apply most phase shift/widening - see bottom left)). Also the Vectorscope was not showing that much out of phase (surround when upmixed) either. Here is what I see in Imager Standard:

This is kind of my 'standard' Izotope Imager style: No widening for bass (anchor bass in fronts), a little between 110Hz and 720Hz), more for higher frequencies.

My 'standard' starting point settings are: 0, 10.1 10.1, 33 so for this one I've tried to push this higher (above). I can see the vectorscope increasing off axis energy which pushes that to the surround channels in the Penteo upmix.

So what? Well Imager can change an upmix especially when the original stereo image is narrow (mono like, everything sounds like its coming from the phantom centre). These upmixed without Imager are fairly ordinary. Crank up the Image settings and the upmix sound way more interesting in surround. This doesn’t add audible artefacts.

I‘ve actually got to the point where I now upmix albums based on what I SEE in Imager and Penteo’s interface. I don’t listen to the upmix. I think I can get a great sounding upmix without hearing anything! Blasphemy I know. But after 4 months of upmixing I now know the visual clues and what Imager and Penteo settings to use to get a great upmix.

Ok I do listen to my upmixes afterwards, but they seldom require any change, they more often than not ’sound right’

Just got it purchased and authorized; so do you use it just in Reaper as a VST or some other way?

Also the png file in your post above is not showing up for me?
Thanks Garry!

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Probably. I’m not familiar with AA3.

I got the idea of using Imager from posts by @Sonik Wiz . Thanks SW!

Thanks for the shout out. And I got the idea from Sansui
I remember when you tracked down that plug in. Pretty straight forward & nifty GUI. I should point out using that tool is static (but variable in degree by you) & the Pan Expand tool in AA3 is dynamic. In other words you set the maximum desired expansion/widening & in the case of center front where L=R there is nothing to widen so the effect is basically off. In the case of a left or right only signal it is at maximum widening effect. And of course contiously variable in between. This tends to keep center front vocals at proper level & has less reduction on bass, which is is also usualy L=R.

However the result is achieved a nudge in the right direction helps a lot. I have tried it with SpecWeb, DPL II & of course the Surround Master.

Edit: I just re-read your post & see that you can the image in 4 freq bands... do I understand correctly? Now that is pretty cool & understand why you were reffering to doing widening mostly around 5kHz. That do a lot to help the bass not be altered & keep sibilance & other transients not being over emphasized. Good show!

 

[holland123]

I had tried stereo expanders of various types and from various plug in programs in the past and they all seemed to produce a degradation of the sonics which to me was not worthwhile so I gave up on them some time ago, But I have to say what you guys are doing with the Penteo is in a word simply fantastic. I bow to the new gen. K

 

[HomerJAU]

what you guys are doing with the Penteo is in a word simply fantastic. I bow to the new gen

I‘m floored Kevin. You are the Master, I’m still an apprentice. Thanks for your kind words.

 

[JonUrban]

I‘m floored Kevin. You are the Master, I’m still an apprentice. Thanks for your kind words.

Kevin has been so kind and generous with upmixes that words like that from him are taken with much respect. To this day I still listen to upmixes he's done, and when you consider the tools available way back, he really set a great standard.

The saddest of sad things about upmixes is this: WHY DO WE HAVE TO DO UPMIXES????

If we could buy surround music, be it disc or download, you know we would. An official release should blow the very best upmix away if it's done properly. Sadly, the future of surround music might just possibly be in the upmix world, and that is a damn shame.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

The saddest of sad things about upmixes is this: WHY DO WE HAVE TO DO UPMIXES????

If we could buy surround music, be it disc or download, you know we would. An official release should blow the very best upmix away if it's done properly. Sadly, the future of surround music might just possibly be in the upmix world, and that is a damn shame.

In ancient days there was plenty of stereo & not too much quad. I was always happy listening to stereo through QS Synth or Fosgate Tate Surround. I didn't dwell too much considering how much better it would be if done in proper surround. I was just so happy it sounded as good as it did. I'm a glass is half full guy I guess.

As new audio gear came out it's purpose moved away from music to movies & certainly the dominance of Dolby matrix playing stereo was the dark ages of surround sound. I pinned my hope on the heavy buzz promoting DPL II. I mean if Fosgate was behind it, if it was designed mainly for music, it had to be fantastic I thought. Not wanting a reciever It cost me $4k buying a Tag McClaren AV32R stand alone processor to find out it wasn't.

Picking up on discussions on Surround By Us & QQ I plunged ahead to make my own dedicated PC for up mixing. It was well worth the effort. The bumper crop-releases from quad to SACD, Blu-Ray etc will not last. The thing to notice is the mainstream newer stuff like Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, et al will never be routinely released in surround sound. You may not like those artists or top 40 stuff but it would be a very good thing to see if they did. Chucky is going to have to work miracles to get the Involve encoder popular in recording studios. I hope he succeeds.

So we are approaching full circle; lots of stereo, not near as much surround as there should be. So up mixing still has a validity today. I don't use it but I'm glad Penteo is a good tool. Everyone here seems to get great results.

Having said all this I also do very littlle up mixing. I too am coming full circle being back to very happy with a hardware solution. But I'll never say never. I'll always reserve the option to do another up mix.

 

[HomerJAU]

Tag McClaren AV32R stand alone processor

I bought one of these in my early days of surround. I just threw it in the garbage recently during my most recent clean out.

I gave away my original Snell LCR speakers with two passive subs I bought in San Fran in early 90s. The guy who picked them up couldn’t stop smiling from ear to ear!

 

[Beefalo]

Kevin has been so kind and generous with upmixes that words like that from him are taken with much respect. To this day I still listen to upmixes he's done, and when you consider the tools available way back, he really set a great standard.

The saddest of sad things about upmixes is this: WHY DO WE HAVE TO DO UPMIXES????

If we could buy surround music, be it disc or download, you know we would. An official release should blow the very best upmix away if it's done properly. Sadly, the future of surround music might just possibly be in the upmix world, and that is a damn shame.

As technology progresses do you think we will be able to Upmix anywhere close to multichannel ?