No, he doesn't trash it; in fact, he really likes it. I do, however, believe that his experience in surround is limited to 5.1, max.
PS Audio's Paul McGowan take on Music in Surround
- Thread starter esimms86
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Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:
There is a pre existing thread for this somewhere on the forum.
Fortunately, the record companies keep trying trying quad/surround sound (~1969 to ~1977), then (~2000) and now with the DV, Rhino and SDE remixes and remasters.
IMHO we really need(ed) an "NBC TV Network of quad/surround sound" - NBC relentlessly promoted color TV, even through the lean years of the first half of the 1960s.
Maybe try to convince the record companies to add 1 (matrix encoded) surround channel to their stereo mixes (which could be kinda decoded with QS [incl the SM], SQ, DS), the added surround channel could be encoded so that it doesn't completely cancel out in mono.
Kirk Bayne
IMHO we really need(ed) an "NBC TV Network of quad/surround sound" - NBC relentlessly promoted color TV, even through the lean years of the first half of the 1960s.
Maybe try to convince the record companies to add 1 (matrix encoded) surround channel to their stereo mixes (which could be kinda decoded with QS [incl the SM], SQ, DS), the added surround channel could be encoded so that it doesn't completely cancel out in mono.
Kirk Bayne
I suspect Paul has an Atmos system for his personal surround. Its just that from a financial perspective, he limits his product to stereo - that is his market. And he and his family have been very successful at this.
I should disclose a tad of personal bias. I have owned PS Audio Power Plants since the first P300 back in 1999.
And my family room primarily 5.1 music system has a P15 Power Plant and 5 Stellar monoblocks. My reviews at AVS Forum have been quoted by PS Audio in several print ads in home theater and audio magazines, though the last quote was probably back in 2009. HA!
I should disclose a tad of personal bias. I have owned PS Audio Power Plants since the first P300 back in 1999.
And my family room primarily 5.1 music system has a P15 Power Plant and 5 Stellar monoblocks. My reviews at AVS Forum have been quoted by PS Audio in several print ads in home theater and audio magazines, though the last quote was probably back in 2009. HA!
I used to own a Power Plant and a Directstream DAC.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps the mods can fold these posts into that thread.
The only PS Audio I own is their AC outlets, AKA power ports. They're quite rugged, quite tight grips on the plug pins, and they're something I don't worry about.
I've bought one of their "Octave" SACDs, which is quite nice but not spectacular stereo - Dave Grusin solo piano - not that a solo piano would benefit from surround sound.
Paul doesn't trash much, if anything at all. After all, he might find himself designing and selling some of this stuff some day.
IMHO, it will if the recording permits.
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Yeah where I gave Paul the birdie, such an idiot!
Sorry, Kirk Bayne, but not getting this analogy at all.
Yes, the other two networks were slower to put all their programming in color, but it wasn’t like you had to buy a second or third TV in order to get color programming from CBS and ABC and NBC’s “relentless promotion” won out. Everyone was using the same technology.
And color was not only a significant upgrade from B&W, but one that EVERYONE appreciated and wanted. But at 1960, a large portion of the country had just finally been able to get their first B&W sets. It was going to take a decade or so before everyone could afford to purchase a color set.
Color TV was going to happen regardless. NBC’s “relentless promotion” had nothing to do with it. They were just the first to fully embrace it and used that to promote THEIR programming. They didn’t use their programming to promote color-TV technology.
The idea that, if not for NBC being the first “full-color” network, we’d all still be watching TV in B&W is pretty silly, TBH.
IMHO, surround sound is a good idea (it's the norm on movies, [digital] TV, video games).
I agree that color TV would have happened without NBC promoting it so much, my point is that, because NBC stuck with color TV through the lean years, color TV became the norm a few years sooner than it would have otherwise.
RCA/NBC bore almost the whole cost of launching color TV (extra money in the TV show budget for color and by in the late 1950s, RCA was the only company making color TV sets). RCA/NBC was willing to absorb the costs of "launching" color TV (from 1953 to 1966).
I wish the big record companies had cut back to only releasing their biggest acts in quad when quad seemed to be fading away in ~1976 and sold the quad albums at stereo prices (absorbed the extra mixing and manufacturing costs, also, no separate stereo mix & release, no dual inventory).
By ~1975, the various quad decoders were fairly advanced, QS & SQ variable matrix & CD-4 with automatic F/B separation, they could have been included in the higher end receivers.
I think RCA had the right idea with single inventory CD-4 discs priced the same as stereo.
Kirk Bayne
I agree that color TV would have happened without NBC promoting it so much, my point is that, because NBC stuck with color TV through the lean years, color TV became the norm a few years sooner than it would have otherwise.
RCA/NBC bore almost the whole cost of launching color TV (extra money in the TV show budget for color and by in the late 1950s, RCA was the only company making color TV sets). RCA/NBC was willing to absorb the costs of "launching" color TV (from 1953 to 1966).
I wish the big record companies had cut back to only releasing their biggest acts in quad when quad seemed to be fading away in ~1976 and sold the quad albums at stereo prices (absorbed the extra mixing and manufacturing costs, also, no separate stereo mix & release, no dual inventory).
By ~1975, the various quad decoders were fairly advanced, QS & SQ variable matrix & CD-4 with automatic F/B separation, they could have been included in the higher end receivers.
I think RCA had the right idea with single inventory CD-4 discs priced the same as stereo.
Kirk Bayne
Max, Paul/PS Audio make excellent sounding stereo gear - and one can take their monoblocks and speakers and make a really nice multi-channel or even Atmos system. Particularly the Stellar M700 and M1200 monoblocks (which I have in my family room system) which are "stellar sounding", lightweight (the M1200 combine tube output with Class D, the M700 are pure solid state Class D). One doesn't have to agree with everything Paul says in his videos - but I think he gives his opinions generally respectfully without getting negative about other companies. Paul has presented as a guest several times to our Arizona Audio Video Club over the years and his presentations have always been done nicely and well attended. Paul and PS Audio will never do a multi-channel, or more than stereo, anything, its just not their market. That doesn't make them idiots. Though its a shame, imagine a Stellar M1200 8 or 16 channel amplifier in a Trinnov SSP home theater. That would be something.
The analogy here would be if had, say, Columbia decided to release everything they put out from 1973 on in quad that more people would have embraced the technology.
I don’t think that would have made a difference. For all the flaws with the quad roll out (competing technologies, questionable title selections, etc) the overriding problem — that still exists today — was being able to convince people that quad sound was something they actually wanted and would be willing to invest the money and effort to set up a system in their home or car.
We’ve probably all had the experience of playing our surround systems for people and they listen to it and say “wow! That sounds great!”, but they still have no desire to go to the effort to put one in their home. They simply don’t care about the sound THAT much.
Color TV was something that once people saw it, virtually everyone wanted it.
I agree that NBCs efforts sped up the full conversion by a few years. But that’s probably all it achieved.
Hopefully, we can all agree that home theater is or can be the gateway drug to music in surround. It certainly was for me. You do have to an interest in/willingness to, at minimum, put a surround receiver and a 5.1 speaker system in your living space, however. That, of course, already makes it a niche, albeit one that some videophiles can get behind.
I recently went the other route, upgrading to a 4K TV and purchasing a Roku 4K streamer (for $29.99!). It was a no brainer, given Black Friday TV deals and the fact that a 5.1 system was already in place. I've mentioned before that my Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D systems are virtual, being based on a Smyth Realiser A16 headphone-based system (with a modified Sennheiser HD800) that also dovetails nicely with my new TV for Dolby Atmos video content. Nonetheless, I use the A16 primarily for the enjoyment of music listening.
I'm old enough to have experienced the advent of quadraphonic sound, however, I did not invest back then because I was a poor college student with neither the space nor the budget back then for a 4 channel system. TBH, at the time I was also irked by the fact that there were different formats to sort through (not an issue decades later once I had an OPPO player in my system). And this was well before VHS vs Betamax and Blu Ray vs HD DVD (and DIVX!) became a thing.
I also remember visiting my best friend in the 5th grade and seeing that his father was a early adopter of color TV. I was both amazed and underwhelmed, as the color balance and skin tones told me that color TV (at least as calibrated in my friend's home) was still not ready for prime time. I have to laugh now, thinking of how much I loved my Sony Trinitron less than 2 decades later and how I thought that it could not get any better than that. I later kicked myself for not investing in a 1080p Pioneer Kuro TV with its blacker blacks, only now to have a 4K OLED that surely must put the Kuro to shame (if visual memory can be trusted).
At the end of the day, we can take many different roads to arrive at immersing ourselves (pun intended) in this spectacular hobby. It's all good.
I recently went the other route, upgrading to a 4K TV and purchasing a Roku 4K streamer (for $29.99!). It was a no brainer, given Black Friday TV deals and the fact that a 5.1 system was already in place. I've mentioned before that my Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D systems are virtual, being based on a Smyth Realiser A16 headphone-based system (with a modified Sennheiser HD800) that also dovetails nicely with my new TV for Dolby Atmos video content. Nonetheless, I use the A16 primarily for the enjoyment of music listening.
I'm old enough to have experienced the advent of quadraphonic sound, however, I did not invest back then because I was a poor college student with neither the space nor the budget back then for a 4 channel system. TBH, at the time I was also irked by the fact that there were different formats to sort through (not an issue decades later once I had an OPPO player in my system). And this was well before VHS vs Betamax and Blu Ray vs HD DVD (and DIVX!) became a thing.
I also remember visiting my best friend in the 5th grade and seeing that his father was a early adopter of color TV. I was both amazed and underwhelmed, as the color balance and skin tones told me that color TV (at least as calibrated in my friend's home) was still not ready for prime time. I have to laugh now, thinking of how much I loved my Sony Trinitron less than 2 decades later and how I thought that it could not get any better than that. I later kicked myself for not investing in a 1080p Pioneer Kuro TV with its blacker blacks, only now to have a 4K OLED that surely must put the Kuro to shame (if visual memory can be trusted).
At the end of the day, we can take many different roads to arrive at immersing ourselves (pun intended) in this spectacular hobby. It's all good.
Tube input stage, afaik.
I mean, that's Apple Music right now.
But Atmos is currently being hindered by a complete and total lack of transparency from Apple, from labels, even from Dolby about what people are hearing, what's in the pipeline, how to properly listen to it, that no, your headphones or soundbar are not letting you hear what you're supposed to hear... so many things that the listening public is being deliberately kept in the dark about. I barely understand what the device limitations are with Apple Music, I've tried to find out what's supported by and what's in the libraries of Amazon and Tidal and I've found next to no reliable info.
At least it's not the format wars of 1970s quad where you had 5 mutually-incompatible formats being pushed hard by hardware manufacturers and record labels.
But now further Atmos adoption is up against a public with considerably less disposable income for the average (by mode) person, and worse, far more things competing for their attention, less genuine leisure time by far, and worst of all, far fewer friends who know how to and would love to help you assemble a good-value-for-money audio system.
One bright spot for right now at least is that estate sales and FB Marketplace have made it cheaper than ever to get a 5.1 receiver and good speakers and a sub. In the last 12 months, I've picked up gear that combined in one setup would be 4 Paradigm bookshelves and a center, a Mirage sub, and a good Onkyo 7.1 receiver with older HDMI, for about $250. If someone's already got an Apple TV or PS5, that's probably well within reach. But, people just don't know what's out there; good speakers go to the landfill all the time because the foam perished.
Thanks Kal. My memory is aging!
NBC pushed color TV so hard, in the 50's and 60's, because their parent company, RCA, invented the NTSC system that served us well until 2009. You'll notice ABC didn't rush into color (they started in 1962), and CBS held off until 1965 to regularly schedule color shows, due to the Paley/Sarnoff "feud". CBS had invented that clunky, electromechanical system that wasn't compatible with monochrome sets. The FCC originally gave CBS's system the nod, but there were practically no sets out there to view the programs on. RCA's system was compatible, so the rest is history. Since none of the networks had any financial interest in surround sound, it wasn't pushed that hard. Now, with digital TV, discrete surround is easily doable.
sarno
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