QQ Official Test of the Involve Audio Surround Master SM-465

[ChristopherLees]

the phono section of the denon most likely won't be dual mono either, so there will be some crosstalk in the specs...except they don't print that part in their user manual...just the bit about 74db signal to noise ratio when used with a 5mv cartridge. (note that is only found in the manual in the main specs, what they seem to always publish in the sales brochure showing 102db s.to n. ratio is for direct in only)

the cartridge brings good money on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-M24...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[Q8]

Here are both QS and SQ test tones via direct downloads. I think these were made by the Old Quad Guy.
http://www.quadraphonic.info/SQandQS/

Jon, maybe these would be more accurate for a test untill you can find a good QS CD?

 

[JonUrban]

Jon, maybe these would be more accurate for a test untill you can find a good QS CD?

I will try a different cartridge tomorrow first. I'm all set up for LPs and reconfiguration will take some time. Quite frankly, I'm pretty happy with the results so far. If they can be improved, well, that's even better. You have to admit, even with the M24H, the wave form from Quadrafile is pretty impressive.

 

[phydo]

Jon:

Thanks for sharing the results of your testing and personal impressions. I am going to have to work the purchase of one of these into the budget!

Justin`

 

[JonUrban]

** Another test using a different turntable with a different physical cartridge **

Today I moved my Sansui XP-99 turntable from my "Movie Room" up to replace the SR-838 turntable and cartridge that I had by my PC. The XP-99 is a newer vintage turntable, post quad-era, and one that I had purchased new all those many years ago. I was surprised to find that the XP-99 also had a Shure M24H cartridge in it, so you have to admit that I was very brand loyal back in the 20th Century!

Anyway, again, using the same model cartridge but a totally different unit, plus going through the DENON AVR, I played the Quadrafile Track 3 "Footsy" through the Surround Master to see if there would be any difference.


Again, I thought the unit performed brilliantly, but when viewing the wav files, I could not see much difference, if any difference at all. There is still some audio information in the silent channels, but again, when listening, your ear IS drawn to the intended channel. So, is it the Denon? Is it the nature of the M24H? I do not have another way to amplify the turntable's output, and I'm not going to go out and by two mono amplifiers for this test, so this is what I have. And you know, I really don't care if there's a little audio information in the other channels, as to my EAR, the sounds are where they are supposed to be. And after all, this is a MATRIX system and an LP that was encoded 30+ years ago with encoders older than that.





This weekend I will attempt to get the old QRX-999 powered up and see how that thing decodes the same LP. (If the thing doesn't burn down my house when I plug it in! )

 

[Q8]

** Another test using a different turntable with a different physical cartridge **

Today I moved my Sansui XP-99 turntable from my "Movie Room" up to replace the SR-838 turntable and cartridge that I had by my PC. The XP-99 is a newer vintage turntable, post quad-era, and one that I had purchased new all those many years ago. I was surprised to find that the XP-99 also had a Shure M24H cartridge in it, so you have to admit that I was very brand loyal back in the 20th Century!

Anyway, again, using the same model cartridge but a totally different unit, plus going through the DENON AVR, I played the Quadrafile Track 3 "Footsy" through the Surround Master to see if there would be any difference.

View attachment 9190
Again, I thought the unit performed brilliantly, but when viewing the wav files, I could not see much difference, if any difference at all. There is still some audio information in the silent channels, but again, when listening, your ear IS drawn to the intended channel. So, is it the Denon? Is it the nature of the M24H? I do not have another way to amplify the turntable's output, and I'm not going to go out and by two mono amplifiers for this test, so this is what I have. And you know, I really don't care if there's a little audio information in the other channels, as to my EAR, the sounds are where they are supposed to be. And after all, this is a MATRIX system and an LP that was encoded 30+ years ago with encoders older than that.

View attachment 9191



This weekend I will attempt to get the old QRX-999 powered up and see how that thing decodes the same LP. (If the thing doesn't burn down my house when I plug it in! )

Just a side note here, if the 999 doesn't burst into flames, you could also use that as a phono preamp to the surround master, as you are doing with the Denon, that may help determine if the Denon's phono section is reducing the seperation. No need to buy two mono preamps

Also you could use a JVC demodulator as a phono preamp if you have one of those laying around. I am pretty sure that phono section is quite discrete

 

[ChristopherLees]

the main thing is you're happy with what you have...that is more important than anything else...

2 shure M24H ...well I guess you could sell one on ebay and with the proceeds buy an Ortofon 2M Blue

 

[JonUrban]

Just a side note here, if the 999 doesn't burst into flames, you could also use that as a phono preamp to the surround master, as you are doing with the Denon, that may help determine if the Denon's phono section is reducing the seperation. No need to buy two stereo preamps

Also you could use a JVC demodulator as a phono preamp if you have one of those laying around

I will try that.

One thing to remember, however, is that the Denon AVR-4806 might be similar in age and type to the receivers that many QQ members already own, and would be hooking their Surround Master's up to, so these tests are important. What is also important is that these tests are nowhere near "EPIC FAIL"s to me. Even looking at these wav forms with the small amount of audio in the "other" channels, you can see with your eyes that the proper channel DWARFS the other 3 channels. Putting that into "ear" perspective, your ear will hear the channel with the highest output. There is no doubt from looking at these wav file jpgs that the Surround Master is indeed decoding the signal properly.

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Jon

Just a quick stupid question, which graph is the Sansui and which is the Surround Master?

Also had another thought (rare), due to component drift even a 10% shift on a capacitor in the RIAA preamp of the phono stage could cause significant Left / right phase variances.... the cartridge is probably better!

Regards

Chucky

 

[Quad Linda]

Denon AVR-4806 is a great choice as being typical, or above what most QQ members are running. I'm running B&K separates for my main system and a Denon AVR-3801 for my second system. The AVR-4806 is somewhere in the middle. Good call, Jon.

 

[Russells]

I'm fascinated. Thanks for taking the trouble a) to do the test, and b) to post the results.

Could I irritate you just enough to tell me what you are using to carry the six channels into your PC. Is it an external box with 6 RCA inputs and a USB connection and matching software or something similar?

I want one !!!

Russell

 

[JonUrban]

I'm fascinated. Thanks for taking the trouble a) to do the test, and b) to post the results.

Could I irritate you just enough to tell me what you are using to carry the six channels into your PC. Is it an external box with 6 RCA inputs and a USB connection and matching software or something similar?

I want one !!!

Russell

No irritation! I use a MOTU 828mk3. Here's a link to the product on the manufacturer's web page:

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3

It's not cheap, but it works very well. I am using the Firewire interface. I would assume that a newer version with USB 3.0 may be in the works.

 

[JonUrban]

Hi Jon

Just a quick stupid question, which graph is the Sansui and which is the Surround Master?

Also had another thought (rare), due to component drift even a 10% shift on a capacitor in the RIAA preamp of the phono stage could cause significant Left / right phase variances.... the cartridge is probably better!

Regards

Chucky

Well, they are both the Surround Master. I have yet to power up the QRX-999. The top file is the original file, from the first time I did it with the Sansui SR-838 and the Shure M24H that is mounted on that turntable. Because that turntable is old and one I got off eBay, I tried it again with my Sanusi XP-99 turntable that I bought new and is in much better condition. That turntable also had a Shure M24H cartridge on it, but not the same physical cartridge that was on the SR-838. The XP-99 playback is the lower wav file.

I will get the QRX fired up this weekend and post the comparison.

 

[Doug G.]

Thanks for this absolutely fascinating thread, Jon. This is what quadraphonics is all about (well, from the electricality end, anyway ).

Doug

 

[Russells]

I must say that, like Doug G, I find this all fascinating and energising. It's really fun to explore these different sounds all over again. As a HiFi nut I spend hours listening to music and playing with sound combinations.

I used to record borrowed vinyl and CDs to the soundtrack on VHS tapes because the fidelity was better than my old reel-to-reel at any speed. I threw away all the VHS tapes (bar a few sentimental specials) years ago when WAV, OGG and MP3 made them redundant.

And, although I kept the CD4 vinyls, I sold my JVC Shibata cartridge and stylus because it was obsolete <smacks forehead> and I would SOO love it back. I'll have to hunt for a new one. Can anyone point me to the best source?

Aaah! What memories.

 

[JonUrban]

the phono section of the denon most likely won't be dual mono either, so there will be some crosstalk in the specs.....

Christopher is correct, according to my tests, results shown below. I took the output of the Sansui XP-99 w/Shure M24H out of the Denon and into the QRX-999, then the stereo output of the QRX to the Surround Master. There is a visable difference in the decode of the Quadrafile QS test tones. You can see below that the information in the "wrong" channels is a bit less when the signal is passed through the Sansui QRX-999 than through the Denon AVR.

Interesting...................

 

[britre]

Very impressive results. IMHO it really is not important how this stacks up against 35 year old plus decoders as the results seem to speak for themselves. Again I ask the burning question as I have found it no place in these discussions, How much is the unit shipped? I do know if you are lucky you can get a actual QS decoder on ebay for under $100 but most of the time the QSD-1 and QSD-2 are going for big un justified dollars.

 

[JonUrban]

Well, forget about me doing a decent decode of QS through my "Gloriously Restored QRX-999". It's junk. Sadly, my $1200 was pretty much a waste, as my QRX-999 is not nothing more than a hulk of nostalgia. After going through the nightmare of wiring it all up to the MOTU and recording in the QS Test LP, I kept thinking something was wrong watching the record-in files. But alas, nothing was wrong, other than the QRX decoder is pretty much shot. Either ruined by a faulty restore, or just time. Not sure. I was not even going to post the wav files here, but I figured you'd all get a chuckle out of it. For these, I removed the hum and adjusted the amplitude a bit to get them all even. Trust me, there was nothing I could do to make these files look any better. Oh well, at least it didn't trip any breakers or burn down the house! @:

 

[JonUrban]

Very impressive results. IMHO it really is not important how this stacks up against 35 year old plus decoders as the results seem to speak for themselves. Again I ask the burning question as I have found it no place in these discussions, How much is the unit shipped? I do know if you are lucky you can get a actual QS decoder on ebay for under $100 but most of the time the QSD-1 and QSD-2 are going for big un justified dollars.

All of that info can be found in this thread:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...aster-2013-Info-questions-and-ordering-Thread

 

[JonUrban]

Alright, here are my final thoughts on this box. It may not be "perfect", it may not be "QS by the book", but it's pretty damned impressive, and it is all the QS Decoder I will ever need. When you think about the cost, it's very reasonable, as it's much more than a decoder for 40 year old QS material, it's a damn good surround processor. I've run some stuff that I had done with SPEC through this decoder, and the results are as good or better in some cases.

The testing of the box has been interesting, but it's far more enjoyable to just hook the thing up and listen to the output. In most cases there will be a "wow" moment when listening to something stereo, and that's good!

I can say that I'm glad I bought this, glad I tested it, and it's going downstairs on my main music system and I'll probably use it most of the time I listen to 2 channel sources. Should be fun with the TV audio!!

If you can afford it, and have a use for it, I give it a very strong recommendation! However, the best recommendation would be to try it for yourself.