"Quiet" Quads (mostly LPs) - Any SQ Encoded?

[MidiMagic]

Isn't it sad that they didn't label quad albums because they might cut into sales? When only a few years earlier, quad was the big thing?

It cut into sales because record stores were putting the albums into "quadraphonic" bins instead of putting the albums with the other albums by the same artist.

(One record store I went to put half if the albums in the artist bin ande half in the quadraphonic bin.)

I see several places where the articles and some posts have the history wrong:

- QS was not "abandoned" in 1972 (5 years before Dolby Surround). I was buying new QS albums in 1979.

- Tommy (the movie) was released in March 1975 with QS.

- Dolby Stereo was released in May 1977 with Star Wars. Other than Tommy, it was the first time I had ever heard surround in a theater. After Star Wars, I heard many surround films.

- The Cinemascope 4-track magnetic soundtrack used in Tommy was obsolescent at the time. Every theater that got the film in Quintaphonic had to have its 4-track refurbished or a new one installed. Other equipment also had to be installed. Other films were not using magnetic sound anymore.

- Tommy required 5 full range speakers.

- Both of my brothers were employees of a movie theater here in the 1970s. They used to bring home pieces of film picked up from the floor of the projection room from when the film broke and was spliced. I examined the soundtracks of these snippets and saw three different types:

- 1. Push-pull mono (appeared as a thick black line that wiggled back and forth - actually two oppositely varying single-acting variable width tracks)
- 2. Variable density mono
- 3. Dolby Stereo (two double-acting variable width tracks)

The same pickup they had could be switched to read all three.

 

[kfbkfb]

IMHO, RCA had the right idea with single inventory CD-4 discs (priced the same as stereo).

If the record industry had maybe agreed on specific terminology (perhaps StereoQ [for all CD-4, SQ, QS] in small print on the back of the album only, with a more complete explanation printed on the paper inner sleeve) and advertised in record stores and mags such as Stereo Review that StereoQ meant stereo compatible (played fine on existing stereo and mono record players) quadraphonic, maybe disc based quadraphonic sound would have caught on.


Kirk Bayne

 

[kfbkfb]

I had the spelling wrong, it's Quintophonic (shown at the end of the end credits in the Tommy movie).

Still haven't found the writeup in (IIRC) Audio mag.


Kirk Bayne

 

[atrocity]

Prior to Dolby stereo, almost everything was mono. I would think that the four tracks would have been mixed equally into a mono mix. Stereo VCR's came as I recall came out after Dolby Surround did.

Yes, almost everything was mono. But there were plenty of high-profile movies from 1953 or so onward that did get 4-track 35mm and/or 6-track 70mm mixes. Being high-profile, a lot of those old stereo movies made it to video in the early days and once home video adopted stereo, the tapes and discs were released with stereo tracks. At least some of those sound "correct" when run through Dolby decoders, but I don't know if that's just a happy accident or because the discrete 4-track recordings were intentionally encoded.

The example that always comes to mind first is "Pink Floyd at Pompeii". On the 4-track magnetic prints, the segment with "On the Run" is obviously from a mono recording for some reason, so the mix pans it around the four channels, including the surround. Decoding the original Laserdisc sounds to me like it did in the theater.

That movie was also part of the original batch of stereo CEDs, but I don't think I've ever tried to decode that one. Not sure I have a working player anyway!

 

[atrocity]

- The Cinemascope 4-track magnetic soundtrack used in Tommy was obsolescent at the time. Every theater that got the film in Quintaphonic had to have its 4-track refurbished or a new one installed. Other equipment also had to be installed. Other films were not using magnetic sound anymore.

The CinemaScope 4-track magnetic format was not obsolete by the time of Tommy. There may have been some obscure exceptions, but for mainstream theaters, "stereo" meant four-track mag right up to the point when Dolby won what I suppose you could call a format war. There was even some overlap during the transition period where popular films like Star Wars were released as both Dolby Stereo and 4-track mag. Some sources even claim 4-track mag hung on until 1983, with Yentl being the last release to offer the option. If true, it's kind of interesting symmetry because it makes Streisand responsible for both the first Dolby Stereo and the last 4-track.

Having said that, it was an expensive and fussy process. The prints were expensive, the tracks wore easily and the average neighborhood theater--especially newer, smaller ones--probably didn't bother to install the necessary hardware. But it went the other way as well: I used to frequent a since-demolished neighborhood theater that never installed Dolby equipment but had--and used--4-track magnetic. In fact, I was personally in the booth (as a visitor, not an operator!) during a showing of The Song Remains the Same (1976, i.e., post-Tommy) and saw the magnetic print with my own eyes. Because of that, I was really annoyed when the original DVD release just had DD 2.0--I *know* there was a discrete mix!

- Tommy required 5 full range speakers.

I hadn't thought about that before, but you're right: Even in the magnetic days, the surrounds were bandwidth-limited. And, since they were used sparingly, the surround tracks had control tones to turn those channels on and off so they wouldn't hiss when they weren't in use. And of course, they were also mono, so at the very least some re-wiring would have been necessary.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

My mistake. The track is "How High The Moon". As for the album being quad, it was verified by the folks at MGM when the album came out. They chose not to label it as quad so as not to potentially cut into sales. Sorry for the goof.

Well not quite .
MGM said no when Tom Moulton asked if he should quad mix and encode the album for quad. But he went ahead with encoding it in QS anyway.
But a problem arose when it was received on listeners AM radios . Ms Gaynor's vocals seemed to fade out on the AM radio playback.
So Tom was compelled to remix it without QS for the 2nd batch of releases.

 

[gvl_guy]

Well not quite .
MGM said no when Tom Moulton asked if he should quad mix and encode the album for quad. But he went ahead with encoding it in QS anyway.
But a problem arose when it was received on listeners AM radios . Ms Gaynor's vocals seemed to fade out on the AM radio playback.
So Tom was compelled to remix it without QS for the 2nd batch of releases.

I guess this means you need a first pressing on this one?

 

[gvl_guy]

It cut into sales because record stores were putting the albums into "quadraphonic" bins instead of putting the albums with the other albums by the same artist.

(One record store I went to put half if the albums in the artist bin ande half in the quadraphonic bin.

Actually, they should have just not put anything on the front cover. A small QS, SQ or "Quadradisc" logo on the back would have been sufficient. Maybe even word it something like "this disc is also compatible with (quad version) systems." Kinda backwards, but quad folks would know and stereo folks wouldn't have freaked out.

I always liked one of the two QS mentions on the back of Larry Fast's 1975 Synergy album. "Because we use the QS system in the mixing of this album, the stereo sound is -- unreal." Positive reinforcement.

 

[quadaholic]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14Vjj15p4ffOYH1N1wiXkPh1x7U3LkfwV/view?usp=sharing
This file contains needledrops from the "Tommy" OST album, which was an unmarked QS record. The first three tracks are from that movie. The 4th track is from the stealth quad album, "Experience", from Gloria Gaynor. The track,
"Never Can Say Goodye", sounds amazing through the Surround Master. This is also an unmarked QS LP.

Jaybird, at the moment all I'm finding is a "cue" file in the link. How might I find the audio? I was expecting a wav or a flac. Let me know. Can't wait to take a look at these.

 

[quadaholic]

https://books.google.com/books?id=W...AM#v=onepage&q="polydor" "tommy" "qs"&f=false^^^
QLP POLYDOR TOMMY/ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK RECORDING $9.98

The final word on the Polydor Tommy LP?


Kirk Bayne

Very interesting, however I've learned to contain my enthusiasm until the recordings themselves pan out. Billboard has been responsible for a lot of quad related documentation that turns out to be not quite right. I don't think it has anything to do with Billboard itself, but more the record companies providing the information. The best comparison I could give would be the King Biscuit show, which has more than a couple of quad shows that are completely stereo.

 

[quadaholic]

The "Star Wars" OST was another unmarked QS album.

Damn, I need to go through my records and see if I have this.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

I guess this means you need a first pressing on this one?

Yes , that's correct. The "First version" pressing only is in QS in an unmarked album.

You can thank both Mark Anderson and Rusti and I for receiving this information from the man himself , Tom Moulton , the engineer involved with the QS encoded version. And it's subsequent correction , back to stereo.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Jaybird, at the moment all I'm finding is a "cue" file in the link. How might I find the audio? I was expecting a wav or a flac. Let me know. Can't wait to take a look at these.

FWIW BB "Dealer Demo Quads" fr November 29th 1975 pg 56,
recommends ; Gloria Gaynor's title track in QS : "Experience".

In addition to Dealer Demo Quads recommendation,
This album , Experience , by Gloria Gaynor was presented at the yearly A.E.S. in 75.
The Gloria Gaynor cut heard for all interested and played in a Sansui QS demonstration was : "Do It Yourself" .
(BB November 15th ,1975 page 68)

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Damn, I need to go through my records and see if I have this.

Remember this would be dolby surround in QS , so that means 4channels , L, C.R. and S .
Not 2 independent Rear channels.


Also for Tommy 75 , the BB "Dealer Demo Quads" recommends the track : Acid Queen , w/ Tina Turner .
(June 07th 1975 page 47)

Also mentioned on my Bluray copy along with the tune "Pinball Wizard" w/Elton John .

But my 2 favourite tracks are with Eric Clapton's appearance.

That Movie was criticized by an Audio review , in that because the Movie contains music from beginning to end they should have included the entire contents on the 2 disc album. It would have been an extra 11 minutes ? I believe. and fwiw , my humble opinion agrees totally with that Audio Reviewer's observation.
Tommy 1975 , The Movie is one of the few albums that is music from start to finish.

 

[gvl_guy]

Yes , that's correct. The "First version" pressing only is in QS in an unmarked album.

You can thank both Mark Anderson and Rusti and I for receiving this information from the man himself , Tom Moulton , the engineer involved with the QS encoded version. And it's subsequent correction , back to stereo.

Tough question. Do you have any idea how you can tell on the album if it's one of the original/first versions? I'm looking at Discogs just to check and I can't really tell. Maybe ones with Milton's name on the jacket? There are various pressings from 1975 and matrix run-outs listed, but I just can't tell.

 

[kfbkfb]

In the Sansui QS promotional ads (in the professional publications), they never mentioned monitoring the QS encoded mix in mono (perhaps it was SOP, in the early 1970s, to monitor stereo mixes in mono [for compatibility] , so they thought they didn't need to mention it).

That may be one small advantage of SQ, one of the CBS design objectives for SQ was good (folddown) to mono, LF, RF, LB, RB all appear at the correct volume levels (QS LB and RB are down ~8 dB) when SQ content is played in mono.


Kirk Bayne

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Tough question. Do you have any idea how you can tell on the album if it's one of the original/first versions? I'm looking at Discogs just to check and I can't really tell. Maybe ones with Milton's name on the jacket? There are various pressings from 1975 and matrix run-outs listed, but I just can't tell.

I have one of these QS encoded LP's and -

My numbers are Side 1:

M3G499AS- PRC-5 TM/JR

Side 2:

M3G4997BS- PRC-6 TM/JR

*I believe the TM/JR stands for:

• Mastered By – José Rodriguez
• Mixed By – Tom Moulton

See runout codes on discogs-
https://www.discogs.com/Gloria-Gaynor-Experience-Gloria-Gaynor/release/778134

 

[jaybird100]

IMHO, RCA had the right idea with single inventory CD-4 discs (priced the same as stereo).

If the record industry had maybe agreed on specific terminology (perhaps StereoQ [for all CD-4, SQ, QS] in small)

IMHO, RCA had the right idea with single inventory CD-4 discs (priced the same as stereo).

If the record industry had maybe agreed on specific terminology (perhaps StereoQ [for all CD-4, SQ, QS] in small print on the back of the album only, with a more complete explanation printed on the paper inner sleeve) and advertised in record stores and mags such as Stereo Review that StereoQ meant stereo compatible (played fine on existing stereo and mono record players) quadraphonic, maybe disc based quadraphonic sound would have caught on.


Kirk Bayne

Maybe, but we also can't forget the cost factor. You'd either have to buy a whole new system to do quad, or convert an existing system. Either way, "Wifey" was already sore enough about two speakers in HER living room (the wives always seem to take ownership of the living room), so now four? It's the NIMLRYD factor. She also wouldn't let you turn it up past 1 on the volume control ("It's too loud!"), how would expect her to react to four big boxes, all booming at her? "If you simply must have it, you can look at it, but don't you dare even think of turning it on". If you're one of the lucky ones whose wife enjoys the music as much as you do, you're in the minority. If not, send her off to her mother's, then fire that system up!

 

[jaybird100]

In the Sansui QS promotional ads (in the professional publications), they never mentioned monitoring the QS encoded mix in mono (perhaps it was SOP, in the early 1970s, to monitor stereo mixes in mono [for compatibility] , so they thought they didn't need to mention it).

That may be one small advantage of SQ, one of the CBS design objectives for SQ was good (folddown) to mono, LF, RF, LB, RB all appear at the correct volume levels (QS LB and RB are down ~8 dB) when SQ content is played in mono.


Kirk Bayne

You just didn't want to mix anything to center rear in SQ, if you wanted mono compatibility. Any sound mixed to that position would disappear in mono.

 

[quadaholic]

You just didn't want to mix anything to center rear in SQ, if you wanted mono compatibility. Any sound mixed to that position would disappear in mono.

Yes indeed. By the way, can you help me with that link for the Tommy and Gloria songs? I still only see the cue file.