Back in the day, no matrix system-- not SQ, not QS-- used any kind of delays. That didn't come until Dolby Surround was applied to movies.I’ve not seen any matrix format that has a delay parameter in its decoding equations.
Back in the day, no matrix system-- not SQ, not QS-- used any kind of delays. That didn't come until Dolby Surround was applied to movies.I’ve not seen any matrix format that has a delay parameter in its decoding equations.
I don't believe that delays are are necessary nor desirable in a typical listening room. Delays can be used in a DSP based system to optimise sound in your particular listening position but IMHO that is mostly unnecessary. I don't always sit in the sweet spot but my analog system always sounds great! A perfect square isn't always the best sounding speaker arrangement either.Without delays, you must sit exactly center between all the speakers. Otherwise, the Precedence Effect will cause problems, pulling panning towards the closer speaker set for correlated information present in multiple channels (applies even to discrete systems for panning). In other words, just because SQ/QS didn't use delays back then that doesn't mean they shouldn't have used them. Not everyone can set up a perfect square for quad in their room.
If you apply fixed delays to your speaker signals the best you can hope to do is move the sweet spot from being equidistant from all speakers apparently to some other position. It has no effect on absolute image location nor on speaker dispersion characteristics. It is just a room specific fudge.Without delays, you must sit exactly center between all the speakers. Otherwise, the Precedence Effect will cause problems, pulling panning towards the closer speaker set for correlated information present in multiple channels (applies even to discrete systems for panning). In other words, just because SQ/QS didn't use delays back then that doesn't mean they shouldn't have used them. Not everyone can set up a perfect square for quad in their room.
Look up the Precedence effect in regards to panning phantom images. It absolutely affects imaging to a very strong degree and it's caused by sound sources arriving at different times with correlated information.If you apply fixed delays to your speaker signals the best you can hope to do is move the sweet spot from being equidistant from all speakers apparently to some other position. It has no effect on absolute image location nor on speaker dispersion characteristics. It is just a room specific fudge.
It's possible that, if matrixed quad had continued to evolve, adjustable delays might have been introduced at some time. These delays would also have been defeatable, since not everybody needs to use them. I listen to my system while moving about in the room, not always sitting in the so-called "sweet spot", and I get great imaging from discrete, QS, and SQ. On paper, what you say about the "Precedence Effect" looks to be true, but in actual use, I don't agree with it at all.Without delays, you must sit exactly center between all the speakers. Otherwise, the Precedence Effect will cause problems, pulling panning towards the closer speaker set for correlated information present in multiple channels (applies even to discrete systems for panning). In other words, just because SQ/QS didn't use delays back then that doesn't mean they shouldn't have used them. Not everyone can set up a perfect square for quad in their room.
It's possible that, if matrixed quad had continued to evolve, adjustable delays might have been introduced at some time. These delays would also have been defeatable, since not everybody needs to use them. I listen to my system while moving about in the room, not always sitting in the so-called "sweet spot", and I get great imaging from discrete, QS, and SQ. On paper, what you say about the "Precedence Effect" looks to be true, but in actual use, I don't agree with it at all.
Dolby Surround, and PL I and II. They actually decode material in any panning position without speakers at those positions. I have been using this effect for years.I’ve not seen any matrix format that has a delay parameter in its decoding equations.
You are mostly correct regarding the precedence effect, we use it extensively in our SST (Sweet Spot Technology), regarding left to right it does in fact have a close to perfect image consistent in all points of the room left to right. In a recent demo we had 6 people in the room, I asked them to go to a bunch of random positions all throughout the room left to right/ front to back. I then asked them to close their eyes and point to one of the instruments, when they opened their eyes they all were pointing to the same spot in the frontal stage- all with no center channel.Look up the Precedence effect in regards to panning phantom images. It absolutely affects imaging to a very strong degree and it's caused by sound sources arriving at different times with correlated information.
Your brain perceives the image coming from the first arrival source until up to 70% of the volume difference overrides it. This can be heard with a panned left-to-right sound on simple stereo. Sit closer to one speaker than another and it pulls hard to that speaker until the image is panned around 70% to the other and then it quickly rushes to that side. Sit in the middle and it pans evenly. Change the delay time so the sounds arrive at the same time for sitting off-center and it pans evenly.
You cannot have it perfect for more than one location. That is precisely why the center channel speaker was invented, but without discrete information, it only cuts the panning error in half and yes, delays are for the MLP. Everything else has varying degrees of imaging error.
Delays only correct room layout issues for one seat, but it can fix a room where an evenly spaced layout doesn't work. Given most home theaters are corrected for one seat, it might be helpful to have delay settings to match since 5.1 or 7.1 in bypasses all/most receiver settings, although I'm not sure if delay is included.
Even my 17.1 channel theater only images everything "perfectly" for one seat (Imaging is more accurate for the 2nd row center seat than off-axis seats as at least it's centered in the horizontal plane.
You are mostly correct regarding the precedence effect, we use it extensively in our SST (Sweet Spot Technology), regarding left to right it does in fact have a close to perfect image consistent in all points of the room left to right. In a recent demo we had 6 people in the room, I asked them to go to a bunch of random positions all throughout the room left to right/ front to back. I then asked them to close their eyes and point to one of the instruments, when they opened their eyes they all were pointing to the same spot in the frontal stage- all with no center channel.
Its not in The Surround Master, its used in our Y4 system with our Y speakers- its a 10 channel system internally - actually the amp has 1812 components in it, just like the overture!Regarding that Sweet Spot Technology, is that used in Involve 4.1 or only in the TSS mode?
So Overture is made up of 1812 bits? the $6m dollar man?Its not in The Surround Master, its used in our Y4 system with our Y speakers- its a 10 channel system internally - actually the amp has 1812 components in it, just like the overture!
No different with discrete or QS. Even SQ can be made to pan anywhere with a position encoder. I have never heard any Dolby system that did anything special, and stereo synthesis is terrible via Dolby. As I've said before Dolby reinvented the wheel but made it square. If you hear no side imaging then perhaps your speakers are too far apart. Just as widely spaced stereo speakers might sound good but produce hole in the middle stereo. I'm sure that the Surround Master being digital has the ability to look ahead to be able to react faster than an analog decoder but what does that have to do with selecting correct decoding?Dolby Surround, and PL I and II. They actually decode material in any panning position without speakers at those positions. I have been using this effect for years.
And I thought someone said that SM had a pre-fetch to select the correct decoding.
No different with discrete or QS. Even SQ can be made to pan anywhere with a position encoder.
I have never heard any Dolby system that did anything special, and stereo synthesis is terrible via Dolby. As I've said before Dolby reinvented the wheel but made it square
I'm sure that the Surround Master being digital has the ability to look ahead to be able to react faster than an analog decoder but what does that have to do with selecting correct decoding?
I don't exactly agree, while side images are not nearly as precise as front images they still exist even without turning your head, The effect is much better if the front and rear speakers are closer together. In a long deep room you will of course get the hole in the middle effect and hear the image from the closest speaker, or perhaps hear two distinct sources. Ambisonics might be able to remedy that but how is Dolby encoding or decoding going to change anything? I prefer having the rear speakers placed off to the sides rather than behind me, the rear left and right signals are then clearly heard to the sides and panned signals move more clearly front to back across the sides.Agreed but how it encodes in theory vs what a person actually hears is not always the same. It seems we're talking a bit about side imaging here, as an example. While a real speaker feed to center left or center right will be heard precisely, phantom imaging only works when your facing that direction straight on. That is, center front. Turn your head to the side 90 deg and that sharp image goes away.
While a real speaker feed to center left or center right will be heard precisely, phantom imaging only works when your facing that direction straight on. That is, center front. Turn your head to the side 90 deg and that sharp image goes away.
I'll bet that you have a reasonable (not overly large) listening room. Glad that you hear pans so clearly, remember that it is still all an illusion, but what a wonderful one at that. I would suggest that for clear panning and side imaging effects in a large room one would need more speakers to fill the empty spaces. For me I'm happy with just four channels!Why would you turn your head? Phantom imaging works perfectly fine in all directions and axis here including vertical. I've got demos and songs that go around in complete circles or rectangles around the room at different height levels even here with 17 speakers.
If phantom imaging didn't work in every direction, sounds wouldn't move smoothly around the room. With PS4 gaming (Standard multi-channel 5.1/7.1 output, not Atmos or anything), I can rotate my character 360 and a sound like a fire crackling moves around me in a smooth circle.
I almost jumped out my chair once when one of the characters in Dragon Age Inquisition suddenly yelled something right behind my left shoulder (that's where he was standing relative to my character) because it sounded so real (phantom image; there is no speaker where his voice came from).
In other words, turning your head is not a good indication of phantom imaging, but hard imaging.
Why would you turn your head? Phantom imaging works perfectly fine in all directions and axis here including vertical. I've got demos and songs that go around in complete circles or rectangles around the room at different height levels even here with 17 speakers.
If phantom imaging didn't work in every direction, sounds wouldn't move smoothly around the room. With PS4 gaming (Standard multi-channel 5.1/7.1 output, not Atmos or anything), I can rotate my character 360 and a sound like a fire crackling moves around me in a smooth circle.
I almost jumped out my chair once when one of the characters in Dragon Age Inquisition suddenly yelled something right behind my left shoulder (that's where he was standing relative to my character) because it sounded so real (phantom image; there is no speaker where his voice came from).
In other words, turning your head is not a good indication of phantom imaging, but hard imaging.
I'll bet that you have a reasonable (not overly large) listening room. Glad that you hear pans so clearly, remember that it is still all an illusion, but what a wonderful one at that. I would suggest that for clear panning and side imaging effects in a large room one would need more speakers to fill the empty spaces. For me I'm happy with just four channels!
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