Rhino to Release Doobie Brothers QUADIO Edition! (ARCHIVE THREAD)

[sjcorne]

It's the other three I'm most interested in having.

It's funny you bring up how quad mixes can often differ from their stereo counterparts, as my one issue with the Toulouse Street quad mix is that it's a little too 'faithful' to the original stereo mix in some ways. In stereo, most of the songs have the drums panned toward the left side. This is replicated in the quad mix, with the entire drum kit hard-panned into the left front channel when it probably would've made more sense (in my opinion, at least) to mix it in stereo across both front channels.

 

[fredblue]

It's funny you bring up how quad mixes can often differ from their stereo counterparts, as my one issue with the Toulouse Street quad mix is that it's a little too 'faithful' to the original stereo mix in some ways. In stereo, most of the songs have the drums panned toward the left side. This is replicated in the quad mix, with the entire drum kit hard-panned into the left front channel when it probably would've made more sense (in my opinion, at least) to mix it in stereo across both front channels.

it is a shame that for their first album with what became their hallmark two-drummer setup that the mix wouldn't take advantage of all the drums!

maybe the Quad guys had too few drum tracks for some songs or drums were recorded onto too few tracks or too much leakage depending on how it was originally recorded as there seems to be a wee bit of "drum ambience" in the other three channels where they are predominantly in the Front Left?

are there any stems for songs off the album floating about online?
would it even be a 16 track recording in 1972?

either way i'm not sure the Toulouse Street Quad is totally a set and forget job?

its always dodgy referring to Quad vinyl rather than the discrete but my knackered old CD-4's all i have access to at the mo so this might be all wrong but in Mamaloi i'm pretty sure the drums only over in the Rear Right.. Don't Start Me Talkin' and Jesus Is Just Alright appear to have the drums in Stereo across the Front.. some tracks they are obviously hard-panned over in the Front Left as you say which is unfortunate.. but this is an interesting surround mix for an album that once you start picking it apart doesn't often have a whole lot going on in it on a number of tracks..kudos to the anonymous mixer(s) back in the day!!

 

[key_wiz]

it is a shame that for their first album with what became their hallmark two-drummer setup that the mix wouldn't take advantage of all the drums!

maybe the Quad guys had too few drum tracks for some songs or drums were recorded onto too few tracks or too much leakage depending on how it was originally recorded as there seems to be a wee bit of "drum ambience" in the other three channels where they are predominantly in the Front Left?

are there any stems for songs off the album floating about online?
would it even be a 16 track recording in 1972?

either way i'm not sure the Toulouse Street Quad is totally a set and forget job?

its always dodgy referring to Quad vinyl rather than the discrete but my knackered old CD-4's all i have access to at the mo so this might be all wrong but in Mamaloi i'm pretty sure the drums only over in the Rear Right.. Don't Start Me Talkin' and Jesus Is Just Alright appear to have the drums in Stereo across the Front.. some tracks they are obviously hard-panned over in the Front Left as you say which is unfortunate.. but this is an interesting surround mix for an album that once you start picking it apart doesn't often have a whole lot going on in it on a number of tracks..kudos to the anonymous mixer(s) back in the day!!

I’m not a fan of drums-in-the-corner quad mixes for sure.

as far as the Doobies go though, I don’t recall two drummers being part of their recorded sound very often if at all.

Most of the time one was playing percussion. I would presume (hope) on the quad mixes that the congas and other percussion are spread out and not on the same track as all the drums.

 

[key_wiz]

It's funny you bring up how quad mixes can often differ from their stereo counterparts, as my one issue with the Toulouse Street quad mix is that it's a little too 'faithful' to the original stereo mix in some ways. In stereo, most of the songs have the drums panned toward the left side. This is replicated in the quad mix, with the entire drum kit hard-panned into the left front channel when it probably would've made more sense (in my opinion, at least) to mix it in stereo across both front channels.

I would find a drums-in-the-corner mix to be disappointing, but at least I hope the drums are there!

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t expect MC mixes to be faithful to the stereo. I often enjoy when they make alternative choices such as to use an alternate vocal take or include instrumental bits left out before or longer cuts.

but sometimes they are obvious sloppy and neglectful errors. Someone didn’t notice a mute button was on or a fader pulled down.

another example is Terry Kath’s missing lead vocal ad libs on “Now More Than Ever” from Chicago (II). (The last chorus of “Make Me Smile” on Chicago IX).

 

[fredblue]

I’m not a fan of drums-in-the-corner quad mixes for sure.

as far as the Doobies go though, I don’t recall two drummers being part of their recorded sound very often if at all.

Most of the time one was playing percussion. I would presume (hope) on the quad mixes that the congas and other percussion are spread out and not on the same track as all the drums.

yeah afaik they had two drummers pretty much the whole time, starting with Toulouse Street.
off the top of my head the Doobie Quad that makes noticeable/effective use of it is the Vices album track Road Angel with a drummer in each Rear but i think even with their other two Quads you can also pick out the two drummers' parts in places, its just nothing on the Toulouse St Quad seemed to make a thing of it from what I can make out.

i'll be able to look at it all more forensically when the Quadio box comes out in September and i can retire my Doobie CD-4's! (YEAY!! can't quite believe i'm saying that!!

 

[key_wiz]

yeah afaik they had two drummers pretty much the whole time, starting with Toulouse Street.
off the top of my head the Doobie Quad that makes noticeable/effective use of it is the Vices album track Road Angel with a drummer in each Rear but i think even with their other two Quads you can also pick out the two drummers' parts in places, its just nothing on the Toulouse St Quad seemed to make a thing of it from what I can make out.

i'll be able to look at it all more forensically when the Quadio box comes out in September and i can retire my Doobie CD-4's! (YEAY!! can't quite believe i'm saying that!!

I know they had two drummers. I just don’t think they had them both playing drum kits at the same time on the albums very often, if at all. The biggest difference from
the first album to Toulouse Street is adding so much percussion to all the tracks.

BTW—as much as I’m a huge Doobies fan—one of the rare fans that likes both the Johnston and McDonald eras equally—I’ve never been a fan of their drum sound. Always thought they sounded weak and often mushy. On big “rock” tracks like “Without You” and “Evil Woman” from The Captain and Me, the drum mix hurts those tracks by being so weak. IMO.

 

[skherbeck]

I found some Jammit stems for "Listen To The Music" and the stereo drum track has the drums panned hard to the left. There's also a separate stem with other percussion elements (I think it was tambourine, etc). Not sure what this has to do with anything, but there ya go, lol!

 

[HomerJAU]

stems for "Listen To The Music" and the stereo drum track has the drums panned hard to the left.

You could always duplicate the left channel drums in right Sean.

 

[quicksrt]

but for those worried about the cost (and I agree that +/- $60 USD will probably be the price point) remember that most all of us would have gladly paid $25-30 a piece had a company like AF released each album separately.

I was getting my Audio Fidelity quadraphonic 3-layer SACDs each for $21 - $22 (shipped) range. I know because that is why I bought 2, 3, and 4 copies of each of the hotter rock ones. I figured they would be worth $50-$60 still sealed down the road a few years.

 

[JediJoker]

I know they had two drummers. I just don’t think they had them both playing drum kits at the same time on the albums very often, if at all.

Oh, hell yes they did! The two were very much in sync, though, so you'd be forgiven for thinking there was only one playing at a time.

 

[key_wiz]

..

 

[markshan]

Think about it logically, from a business perspective: the number of discs presents a fixed cost that must be recouped. Certainly, there is greater expense in mastering and otherwise preparing for release a longer duration of music, but this is de minimis compared to mass production costs. Therefore, of these two, the more salient determinant of MSRP is number of discs.

If labels looked at it that way all four would be on a single disc. They could fit it easily.

 

[Eggplant]

I'm just saying that knifeman might want to go ahead and get the DVD-A of Captain in addition, at least while it's still available. That is, of course, if he likes the album enough. I like it more than any other Doobies album, so it's a no-brainer for me to own all available surround and hi-rez releases of it.

Gonna have to agree, friend.
$100, yes — but it’s superior to the quad version.

 

[Eggplant]

Missing parts/tracks on some of the old quad mixes is a frustrating reminder of how much the format was an afterthought at the time. Not that it would have likely made much difference towards the format's success, but still....

I'm reminded of the missing piano track on "Angry Young Man" from Turnstiles (how do you forget about the PIANO on a Billy Joel album???) or the missing acoustic guitar track that plays the intro MELODY on "Wishing You Were Here" from Chicago VII (and IX).

If you think missing tracks was just an artifact of the quad era you are sadly mistaken. It happens just as often today with 5.1 and Atmos. The new Atmos American Pie left off all the electric guitar leads. That lame enough?

As for Angry Young Man, pretty sure what happened there. They booked a studio for the remix that lacked enough board inputs for all the channels and reverbs. This shows up in many early Columbia or Epic quads as reverbless instruments (a glaring example is the dry, hokey synth in Great Suburban Showdown on Streetlife Serenade). The entire quad Turnstiles is a mess, what with non-master takes, off-balance parts, out-of-tune horns (a first), and dry (no-reverb) drums. But that missing piano part takes the cake as arguably the lamest missing instrument in multichannel history (Billy Joel without his piano?) It only occurs in the middle section where all the acoustic guitars are, so I’m guessing they just ran out of inputs. The engineer probably had three days to do it, and found out only on day two that the board was insufficient. Rather than get bitched out by Columbia, he just did the best he could. Nobody ever checked his work anyway. We know this because someone would have dropped dead of a heart attack if they had.


As regards alternate solos like the famous second half of the organ break in Do It Again, I’ve never found a single word in any interviews with artists or engineers mentioning this common issue. But I believe the only explanation for why they are no longer available is that they were live punch-ins performed during the stereo mix, done as a last-minute change after the track was complete when no additional tape track was available.

 

[fredblue]

I found some Jammit stems for "Listen To The Music" and the stereo drum track has the drums panned hard to the left. There's also a separate stem with other percussion elements (I think it was tambourine, etc). Not sure what this has to do with anything, but there ya go, lol!

well there you go! i bet the Quad guys (that crack mixing team A.N. Onymous and W.H. Oodunit) were stuck with the multitracks from '72 when they came to remix it a couple of years later and found only limited drum track(s) at their disposal!

 

[fredblue]

I know they had two drummers. I just don’t think they had them both playing drum kits at the same time on the albums very often, if at all. The biggest difference from
the first album to Toulouse Street is adding so much percussion to all the tracks.

BTW—as much as I’m a huge Doobies fan—one of the rare fans that likes both the Johnston and McDonald eras equally—I’ve never been a fan of their drum sound. Always thought they sounded weak and often mushy. On big “rock” tracks like “Without You” and “Evil Woman” from The Captain and Me, the drum mix hurts those tracks by being so weak. IMO.

when you all get your Quadio sets, zoom straight to Road Angel and bask in those double drummers! the mix is amazingggg!!!

 

[fredblue]

If you think missing tracks was just an artifact of the quad era you are sadly mistaken. It happens just as often today with 5.1 and Atmos. The new Atmos American Pie left off all the electric guitar leads. That lame enough?

As for Angry Young Man, pretty sure what happened there. They booked a studio for the remix that lacked enough board inputs for all the channels and reverbs. This shows up in many early Columbia or Epic quads as reverbless instruments (a glaring example is the dry, hokey synth in Great Suburban Showdown on Streetlife Serenade). The entire quad Turnstiles is a mess, what with non-master takes, off-balance parts, out-of-tune horns (a first), and dry (no-reverb) drums. But that missing piano part takes the cake as arguably the lamest missing instrument in multichannel history (Billy Joel without his piano?) It only occurs in the middle section where all the acoustic guitars are, so I’m guessing they just ran out of inputs. The engineer probably had three days to do it, and found out only on day two that the board was insufficient. Rather than get bitched out by Columbia, he just did the best he could. Nobody ever checked his work anyway. We know this because someone would have dropped dead of a heart attack if they had.


As regards alternate solos like the famous second half of the organ break in Do It Again, I’ve never found a single word in any interviews with artists or engineers mentioning this common issue. But I believe the only explanation for why they are no longer available is that they were live punch-ins performed during the stereo mix, done as a last-minute change after the track was complete when no additional tape track was available.

there are faithful mixers and there are revisionist ones who aren't afraid to take a few liberties.. Young & Kleiner seemed to have been squarely in the latter camp!

based on how good their Poco/Dave Mason/REO Speedwagon Quads are i can't see them putting in a half-arsed job on anything but they do have form for using alternate takes with notable differences from the Stereo (Bob Dylan's Desire, Jeff Beck Rough & Ready, Chicago II, EW&F's TTWOTW, Derringer's All American Boy).. i've enjoyed some of their differences and scratched my head at others but its all been an interesting listen whether it worked or not!

 

[joelchip]

I think that the Doobies Quadio set's MSRP will be around $69.99-$74.99
Why that range?
The MSRP for the Chicago set (with 9 Blu-Ray audio discs) was $159.99 (averaging around $18 per disc) so for a set with 4 Blu-Ray audio discs, a $70-$75 price range seems perfectly fair (though after retailer discounts, I think the set will probably end up costing most of us around $60)

I have "The Captain and Me" on DVD-A, Stereo/5.1 both versions are superb quality. It's hard to believe it's an analog recording. Wonderful surround mix by Elliot Scheiner. The original produced by Ted Templeman engineered by Don Landee. Those guys knew what they are doing in 1973. The material and recording quality makes this one of the most prized discs in my collection. If this quadio set is released, GET IT!

 

[markshan]

both versions are superb quality. It's hard to believe it's an analog recording.

There are literally tens of thousands of wonderful sounding analog recordings. Is this a joke?

 

[joelchip]

There are literally tens of thousands of wonderful sounding analog recordings. Is this a joke?

No it's not a joke. It's a testament to the superb quality of THIS recording. Ted Templeman and Don Landee created a work of art in it's analog form that was far superior to many of the full digital recordings made later on. I'm not understand the hostility and the distortion that I was trashing other fine analog recordings.