HiRez Poll Santana - LOTUS [SACD][JAPAN]

[sjcorne]

Not sure how aggressive the LP SQ (correct term?) mix was but I was expecting something a bit more than ambiance from the surrounds.

SQ= "Stereo-Quadraphonic". 4-2-4 matrix system developed by Columbia in the early 1970s. The original 4-channel mix is folded down to stereo with a specialized encoding device and recreated in the home of the consumer with a decoding box. Unfortunately when an SQ LP is decoded the instrument positions are blended together and don't represent the actual mix as intended- how closely it resembles the original mix depends on how good the user's decoder is.

Lotus is a perfect example of this- the actual mix has very little content in the rears, yet when the SQ LP is decoded sounds from the fronts find their way into the rears at a slightly lower volume. See Jon's post upthread for a comparison between this new SACD and the AF Stereo SACD (which is the same as the SQ LP) run through the Involve Audio Surround Master (developed several years ago with modern engineering- one of the best SQ decoders).

Usually Columbia made their quad mixes extremely active and discrete to compensate for the loss of separation due to the SQ system- The Jeff Beck quad mixes released on SACD (Blow By Blow, Wired, Rough & Ready) are a good example of that kind of extreme separation. The only Columbia quads I've heard that aren't mixed that way are Neil Diamond's Serenade, Herbie Hancock's Secrets, and Lotus.

Not sure why they didn't mix Lotus more aggressively- it's obvious today that a mix this subtle would never work on SQ LP. Some active mixes don't even decode well!

 

[cornwall198]

As a musical listening experience, I really loved this. I have never heard any version of this set before - though I have most of the early Santana studio albums. I loved it! What an amazing live set - really grabbed my attention and sustained it throughout, apart from a couple of over-noodly bits. What an extraordinary guitarist this guy is, right? With all these wonderful musicians. And the comments above seem right to me - disc 3 is especially wonderful. As with the Allman's Fillmore Blu-ray and Dylan Live 1964, I have grown to love 'sitting in the audience row 5', as it were, sharing in the live experience. Maybe the audience is a bit too left & right on this one, but the effect is still rather wonderful. For a live concert recording this front/music, back/audience format has really grown on me. Even if I was initially disappointed with e.g. The Allman's set. So for me, I'm going high - a 9 to reflect the overall experience of sitting in the audience, loving the live concert and optimistic music on a lovely Saturday morning! Dinged it 1 point as the bass is too light, and I wish it had a bit more presence...

 

[Beefalo]

I have both SACD releases. Play the AF stereo version through a good processor. It's much more immersive than the quad.
Neural X sounds great to me....

 

[watsontr]

I've had this for years but still haven't heard it!!! No longer available from the CD Japan site

 

[par4ken]

Not sure why they didn't mix Lotus more aggressively- it's obvious today that a mix this subtle would never work on SQ LP. Some active mixes don't even decode well!

I think that because it is a subtle mix is why it was released as a single inventory quad. Too bad they didn't do more that way. Mountain "Twin Peaks" I believe was another similar single inventory quad. My copy from Japan clearly states SQ Quadraphonic on the label and cover, releases from other countries just say stereo but are the same mix. The virtue of SQ is perfect left to right separation so that nothing is lost to stereo listeners. The applause is the only thing encoded, the phase shifting might make that sound more natural as well for stereo listeners by diffusing it a bit.

I don't understand why they didn't mix the applause continuously across the rear. It sounds like two distinctly different clusters of audience on each side. So what about not encoding Cb in SQ, in this case it would just be a bit of audience missing in mono playback!

While I'm happy to have this I think that the SQ version with it's bit of front to rear channel leakage is a bit more pleasant to listen to.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I don't think I'll vote. I'm glad to have this. I thought about picking up a CD or LP version instead, at some point, but I'd like to have all the Sony Japan Santana Quad SACDs, when all is said and done.
The packaging is gorgeous.
The mix is what it is.
Musically, I love most of this. Some of the vocals are a bit pitchy and could have used some volume adjustment.
All in all, very cool concert.

As a "surround album" I'd rate this at maybe a 5 or 6? But, given it's nature it's more like an 8, for me. But I think any vote from me would be misleading.

 

[Dynamic Editor]

I ordered this from Japan and it came yesterday... but they gave the wrong version. They gave me the 2006 3-CD release, without the bonus tracks. Currently trying to return it/get refunded for my order. Thankfully, checking back on the listing, it was their fault, not mine.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

I ordered this from Japan and it came yesterday... but they gave the wrong version. They gave me the 2006 3-CD release, without the bonus tracks. Currently trying to return it/get refunded for my order. Thankfully, checking back on the listing, it was their fault, not mine.

Long out of print.
Will run you about $100+ on the after market, sealed mint copies available.
https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/10040223?ev=rb&ships_from=United+States
Really, you are paying for the highly prized art / packaging more than the music.
A jewel in my collection for that reason, but YMMV.

 

[Bill_in_Cle]

I've been a fan of this album for years but have only had a European LP set and the Columbia US 2-CD set. I was sorry I missed this quad SACD reissue (at least for the additional music) until I read the reviews here at QQ.

I'm new to old quad releases and their encoding formats, but I recently played the CDs decoded with Dolby ProLogic II Music, and was very surprised at the results. The rears were filled with music; a great deal of (seemingly) more discrete instrumentation (mostly percussion); a lot of movement on 'wailing' effects from guitar and keyboards. That is, NOT AT ALL a boring (to me) mix with only audience noise in the rears. Sound quality was great; I feared the decoding might make it sound odd/phasey/mush-y. (I'm so new to this, my vocabulary is lacking!) A lot better mix than the Allman Bros Fillmore East 3 disc blurays. Granted, it was an artificially created 'mix', not as producers intended, but much better for the listener.

Has anyone tried PL II decoding the stereo SACD (and CD layer) of this release? Is it a more interesting listening experience, like I found with the old CDs?

Since 2024 is the actual 50th anniversary of this album, maybe Sony Japan will reissue it, if only in a 3 SACD jewel case without all the packaging, so as not to step on the toes of those who bought the original limited edition.

Yeah, sure....

 

[humprof]

Phil Freeman does a deep dive on Lotus--an appreciation of the album itself and a review of Santana's career up till that point--for its 50th anniversary on his Burning Ambulance Substack:

https://burningambulance.substack.com/p/santanas-lotus-50

"Caravanserai, Love Devotion Surrender, Welcome, Illuminations, Borboletta and especially Lotus represent a creative and spiritual peak [Santana] never reached again."

 

[omnipotent1]

A TEN-EROO baby!
The packaging is just insane.
A triple vinyl fold out replica of the original.
I can't say enough about the packaging of these Japan Sacds
A friggin' steal for what you get
38 euros from CDJapan even with shipping I came out ahead of buying in the EU
Mix is fine for a live concert it really is.

 

[Dynamic Editor]

This is a release that I'd consider essential despite having a mediocre surround sound mix. All tracks except the incredibly patronizing "Japan" are stunning, and the full concert is only available on this set. Please please please, if you have a passing interest in Santana—maybe you admire their debut and Abraxas—the music is amazing, and the packaging, like the rest of Santana's surround SACD releases, is great as always.

I tend to vote on surround sound releases based on the quality of the mix compared to its mono and stereo incarnations moreso than anything else. If I am able to get a CD with a comparable or better mix quality than the surround sound release, then why bother with the costlier surround sound?

This release presents a quandary to me in that the bonus tracks it contains alongside the quality of the album as a whole makes it absolutely worth the purchase, despite having a lame surround sound mix. Because of this, I find it fitting to comment, but not vote.

(I know others tend to rate in these surround sound polls differently than me, and that's a discussion better suited for a different thread.)

P.S. I made a splice to have the end of Disc 1 transition seamlessly into the start of Disc 2, which you can find here.

 

[Bill_in_Cle]

I recently acquired this SACD set (like new) for a Very Good Price.

--Yes, the SACD quad layer is a pretty dull surround sound experience: mostly audience and ambiance in the rears.

--The Stereo SACD & CDDA layers provide a Much More Interesting surround sound experience when played through the "Dolby ProLogic II Music" setting on my AV receiver. Audition disc 1, track 3 (lots of echoplex movement) and track 8 (percussion in left rear). Track 8 is one of the bonus tracks (some on each of the 3 discs), so it seems they made an effort to mix the new tracks to stereo (and quad) in the same 'style' as the original tracks.

Still, definitely worth buying for the sound quality and bonus tracks. Wish there were English translations of the booklet essays online!

 

[artwwweb]

Wish there were English translations of the booklet essays online!

If you have a smartphone, you probably have the ability to translate easily. I recently ripped a few of my Japanese SACDs and it took less time to translate than they did to rip. Find the translate app (it's simply called "Translate" on Android), take a photo, press translate. If you then 'select all' and copy, you can paste the text into another document (e.g. one created in Google Docs) and save the results. I find that is easier than reading from my phone screen and of course means you can read the notes at your leisure. You might find it a bit fiddly at first but after a few pages you'll find you can do each page in a few seconds, save all the translations in one big file, and read later.

 

[Petr Kropotkin]

If you have a smartphone, you probably have the ability to translate easily. I recently ripped a few of my Japanese SACDs and it took less time to translate than they did to rip. Find the translate app (it's simply called "Translate" on Android), take a photo, press translate. If you then 'select all' and copy, you can paste the text into another document (e.g. one created in Google Docs) and save the results. I find that is easier than reading from my phone screen and of course means you can read the notes at your leisure. You might find it a bit fiddly at first but after a few pages you'll find you can do each page in a few seconds, save all the translations in one big file, and read later.

I'm not sure if that's a business opportunity for you, but if you could attach .pdf's of your hard work to some posts on here you would at least gain the eternal thanks of QQers (who, given how much we keep spending on new releases, are short of cash, but high on praise).

 

[artwwweb]

I did consider that when I did it the other day but I assume it would infringe copyright.