Speaker brands/lines with Height/Atmos models?

[mister_eff]

Hello, Is this the right place to talk about speakers?

I'm looking into building up a 5.x.4 speaker system from scratch (the speakers at least). I have a very old pair of Polk LSi9's that I like, but I feel like continuing with that series is going to just cause problems when I inevitably want height speakers (the LSis were replaced with LSiM's, which are also now discontinued I think).

I'm thinking of starting with towers (<~$1200/pair) and bookshelves ($500/pair) to get 4.1 (I have a sub I can start with), and then slowly adding other parts from there, including the height/Atmos speakers. I thought I'd look into speaker lines with dedicated height/Atmos speakers just to have a full matching set. However, I don't really know what's out there. I'm completely new to height speakers, but I don't think I'd be able to mount them on the ceiling. I think the best I'll be able to do is mount them on the wall angled down, hence my interest in height/Atmos speakers that are already angled down.

Here are a few speakers I've found

• Wharfedale Diamond 12
• ELAC Debut 3.0
• SVS Prime
• Polk Reserve

I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations, as well as people's thoughts on these particular lines. From my brief googling, I've seen anecdotes like ELAC is known for being neutral, Wharfedale Diamond 12 is known for being a little laid back, and SVS Prime is more forward. But those might just be random opinions.

I've also seen some opinions that towers don't become a better value over bookshelves unless one is spending $1500+ on them. I've also been out of the speaker market for a long time, so I'm not sure if my ball park price ranges make sense.

(also, I do have some owens corning acoustic panels and will be looking into treatments and tuning also, but that's another story).

Anyway, I'm still in the brainstorming stage, so any thoughts are welcome. Thanks.

 

[ProgRules]

I got these and am very happy with them:

https://emotiva.com/products/airmotiv-xa2-pair-height-surround-ceiling-speaker

There is a whole line of airmotiv speakers, but I've no experience with any but these.

 

[beerking]

I use these SVS Prime Elevation speakers for my Atmos heights.
Very pleased with them.

https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation

The rest of my floor standers and centre speaker are from the Monitor Audio Silver 6 series.

But now discontinued...
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/support/past-products/silver-5g/silver-6/

 

[stormchaser]

I use these SVS prime Elevation speakers for my Atmos heights.
Very pleased with them.

https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation

The rest of my floor standers and centre speaker are from the Monitor Audio Silver 6 series.

I echo the praise for the SVS Prime Elevations.

 

[jimfisheye]

If the speaker models you like have smaller versions that are the same tweeters and mids as the larger models - just the tops split apart from the full version - that leads to a full array with phantom imaging on point in all axis and you can speaker manage (bass manage) the whole array and dial that in.

Some choices will have that and then make purpose built cabinets and mounting lending to using as heights mounted from the ceiling. Stay away from oddball off brands or "department store" ceiling speakers. Don't just treat the heights as an aside, that is. Mixes vary as always but phantom imaging is a thing and heights matching the rest can be as important as the main L/R matching each other. I don't mean to say any speaker marketed as a ceiling speaker is lo-fi garbage! There are professional choices becoming available with the introduction of Atmos and height channels. Just don't treat these as the "throw away" channels.

The speaker positions are given as a recommended range. You don't have to hit theoretically perfect spots but you want to be within the recommended ranges. Again, phantom imaging between channels will be skewed if you mount height channels to a wall, for example. Just like stereo imaging would be skewed if you set up a stereo pair skewed oddly.

We do try to make mixes that don't just go from zero to 100 requiring perfect imaging or bust! Using some old school techniques that deliver. Or some of us do anyway. So there's wiggle room. That goes out the window a bit if you put full 12 channel Atmos mixes to a smaller array where it starts downmixing. NOW you have phantom images everywhere and the speaker matching and positioning gets more critical.

Being strategic with any reasonable speakers can outperform something boutique set up weird or compromised. A little bit of room treatment goes a long way too! Going to 12 channel led me to making the room a little more clinical. Otherwise you're listening to reflections everywhere from all those speakers! Fidelity still comes before more channels for most bang for the buck is all I'm trying to say.

 

[jsulzinger]

NHT has some
https://www.nhthifi.com/products/ms-satellite--dolby-atmos-enabled-satellite-speaker-single

 

[weekendtoy]

.

 

[minimumtumbleweed]

I'm not convinced that the Atmos speakers really need to be timbre-matched to your other speakers. It's nice if you can do it, but better to first of all have heights that function well as height. I'm also not convinced you need to spend an arm and a leg on Atmos speakers. I have the Polk OWM3 which are not great on their own but super easy to install and adjust, and sound perfectly fine for Atmos height content.

 

[sjcorne]

Again, phantom imaging between channels will be skewed if you mount height channels to a wall, for example.

That's not my experience with wall-mounted height channels. I've got a pair that are the same brand/series as my floor-standing fronts and the imaging is pretty uncanny. Just listened to the new Atmos mix of Bowie's Ziggy Stardust and the lead vocal appears solidly suspended between the fronts and front heights, as if there's an extra speaker at that mid-point.

Not all of us have the option of drilling holes in the ceiling.

 

[jimfisheye]

If you place the speakers outside of the expected locations, phantom images are going to be skewed and the mix will not sound as originally intended. There's some wiggle room as I mentioned and all mixes aren't just "perfect system or bust". But it's a thing.

The question rephrased is: Are mixes made that pan sounds across and in between speakers to where speaker placement is important to reproduce it?
Answer: Yes!

Drilling holes and such...
If music is secondary for a room then say no more!
If music listening is primary in a room... I'm not in here with you, you're in here with me! And we're drilling some holes!
That's the committed approach anyway. For those of us who probably should be committed!

 

[steelydave]

I think a lot of us have living arrangements and listening setups that are less than spec-based ideal, aside from the most fortunate.

I think thinking of Atmos height speakers as a wall-based/ceiling based right/wrong good/bad binary is wrong-headed, because what the specs call for is a number of degrees from the listening position, rather than a specific number of feet up the wall or a certain number of feet in from a wall if they're on the ceiling. In an ideal 4 height speaker setup, you're supposed to have the front heights 45 degrees in front of the listening position, and the rear heights at 135 degrees (45 degrees behind you). This means (for example) if you had a small-ish room with really high ceilings that the ideal spot for your height speakers would be on the wall, whereas if you had a huge room with low ceilings, the height speakers would be on the ceiling and much closer to the listening position.

I think of all the less-than-ideal setups, having wall mounted (or not as high or on ceiling) height speakers is probably the best problem to have. It doesn't effect the "phantom height" imaging at all (and in fact might make it better) between floor and height, the only real knock-on effect is that the ability to locate things in the "phantom ceiling" position (ie the spot above you equidistant between all 4 height speakers) would be somewhat compromised, the same way your phantom center in a regular stereo setup would be if you had your two speakers spread too far apart. Of all the Atmos instrument placements I would suggest that "phantom ceiling" is probably one of the least used, especially for single sound sources like a voice, or instrument so it's most likely the least noticeable.

The Dolby diagrams that show three-dimensional renderings of rooms with speakers all over the place (like the one below) really give a skewed idea of what proper speaker arrangement should look like - I think they've done themselves a huge disservice in creating them. You should think of them as being simplified illustrations, sort of like how the London Tube map isn't geographically correct at all.

Instead you should rely on diagrams like these, or any that show you the actual angles for speaker positioning and mounting.

 

[steelydave]

Oh and just to stay kind of on topic, KEF have a large range of ceiling speakers, both mountable and in-wall that pair with their various speaker lines - if anyone wants to buy me some I would be quite amenable.

 

[sjcorne]

Of all the Atmos instrument placements I would suggest that "phantom ceiling" is probably one of the least used, especially for single sound sources like a voice, or instrument so it's most likely the least noticeable.

It is definitely uncommon but if anyone wants to test how this renders on their system, there's a great instance of it in the song "Black Water, White Circle" on Crowded House's Gravity Stairs. Neil Finn's vocal at 2:22 ("she is the force that leads me...") comes out of that 'voice-of-god' all-heights position to very cool effect.

 

[kap'n krunch]

I think a lot of us have living arrangements and listening setups that are less than spec-based ideal, aside from the most fortunate.

I think thinking of Atmos height speakers as a wall-based/ceiling based right/wrong good/bad binary is wrong-headed, because what the specs call for is a number of degrees from the listening position, rather than a specific number of feet up the wall or a certain number of feet in from a wall if they're on the ceiling. In an ideal 4 height speaker setup, you're supposed to have the front heights 45 degrees in front of the listening position, and the rear heights at 135 degrees (45 degrees behind you). This means (for example) if you had a small-ish room with really high ceilings that the ideal spot for your height speakers would be on the wall, whereas if you had a huge room with low ceilings, the height speakers would be on the ceiling and much closer to the listening position.

I think of all the less-than-ideal setups, having wall mounted (or not as high or on ceiling) height speakers is probably the best problem to have. It doesn't effect the "phantom height" imaging at all (and in fact might make it better) between floor and height, the only real knock-on effect is that the ability to locate things in the "phantom ceiling" position (ie the spot above you equidistant between all 4 height speakers) would be somewhat compromised, the same way your phantom center in a regular stereo setup would be if you had your two speakers spread too far apart. Of all the Atmos instrument placements I would suggest that "phantom ceiling" is probably one of the least used, especially for single sound sources like a voice, or instrument so it's most likely the least noticeable.

The Dolby diagrams that show three-dimensional renderings of rooms with speakers all over the place (like the one below) really give a skewed idea of what proper speaker arrangement should look like - I think they've done themselves a huge disservice in creating them. You should think of them as being simplified illustrations, sort of like how the London Tube map isn't geographically correct at all.

View attachment 109186


Instead you should rely on diagrams like these, or any that show you the actual angles for speaker positioning and mounting.

View attachment 109187
View attachment 109185

Just my 2 cents worth, in case you want to go the "pro" way of spacing your speakers.
I had my heights at 45º up and to the sides but I found out that they needed to be higher, which I already have the hardware to fix, if only after Francine passes by (!)...
The DARDT Excel sheet will tell you the best positions and distances...here you go:

https://professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/HE-DARDT-Quick-Start-Video-Series?language=en_US

Thankfully I have the Ginger Audio Sphere app where I can dial in the delay in (milli)seconds of each speaker to avoid any phasing issues...

Happy trails!

 

[mister_eff]

Oh and just to stay kind of on topic, KEF have a large range of ceiling speakers, both mountable and in-wall that pair with their various speaker lines - if anyone wants to buy me some I would be quite amenable.

No worries about branching off topic. As someone planning a height-based set-up, I've been struggling with the exact issue you guys have been talking about. In-ceiling speakers aren't possible for me, so I've been looking at a "compromise" solution anyway. I actually find the one-for-all set-up idea very comforting. Just having the height speakers at a 30 degree angle (which seems to be the angle height speakers are generally built at anyway from my eyeballing) pointing directly above the listener seems like it'll be great for immersion, even if it's not perfect for object placement. From the POV of someone who hasn't experienced much Atmos, not having perfect object placement seems like an okay compromise relative to getting 4 height speakers in roughly a symmetrical layout.

 

[mandrix]

Because I have a slanted ceiling, two of my height speakers are mounted to the wall, and two are mounted to the ceiling to keep them the same distance from the floor. Necessary? probably not...but of course some people think room correction software is BS anyway.
All 4 top speaker mounts are MOL infinitely adjustable and point directly at the mlp. All my speakers are self enclosed speakers. I would have no clue what in ceiling speakers sound like but I assume some folks get good results.
I moved my front top speakers several times until I got the effect I wanted. I actually run them as "mid top" to good effect. All rooms are different.

 

[bgf1973]

I use 4 old Q Acoustic 2010 on a shelf above the front and rear surrounds, near the ceiling. I think this is not the best position but I have not other option

 

[mandrix]

Recently I rotated my listening position by 90*. Fortunately I only had to move the center speaker and sub! The prior placement of the top speakers worked out well.
I did switch from 7.1.4 to 5.1.4 however. I also switched in the AVR to front top and rear top speakers, whereas I previously had one pair set as "mid top".
I can now hear the center speaker much clearer than before.
After a firmware update recently on the RZ50 I did a fresh 9 point calibration (tightly focused listening position) and the system sounds better than it ever did. But boy howdy have I moved stuff around a lot over the last 2 years to arrive at this point.
Separate Bass control was added to the firmware and to the Dirac Live app but I haven't felt a need to use it as yet. There are two sub pre-outs on the AVR, but I believe they are not controlled separately, probably just a Y split. No matter as I don't plan to run two Subs anyway.

So I guess I would say, that if possible, and you don't think your system sounds the way it should, don't be afraid to move speakers around. I know many of us have limited options for doing so, but sometimes a little bit helps. Especially with the sub/subs.

 

[DrKlahn]

A lot of brands have in ceiling stuff that works. To keep within the same family (and similar voicing) I went that route. Actually mounting them in ceiling wasn't going to work in my room, so some premade 10" sub speaker boxes mounted to the ceiling did the trick.

Just a suggestion if you happen to either have speakers or want speakers from a brand that doesn't have a ready made ceiling speaker.