Haven't heard the JJR, but I'm thinking Gaucho might squeek out as the better disc.
DVD/DTS Poll Steely Dan - Gaucho [DTS CD]
- Thread starter Bob Romano
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That is exactly what I was thinking when I made that comment. That one is also tops for a DTS original mix release. When I say tops, I mean the very finest imo, preferred over those other good ones.
Depends on which material strikes your fancy. Both sound stunning, I like the SD material a touch more as well.
JJR > Gaucho in the polls. Both these are superb sounding and among my very first music surround discs. They both were played constantly here for many years. I wish all MCH releases sounded more like these two must haves.
If the comparison was DTS-CD to DD or PCM, I'd guess the 'fullness' was due to LFE being 10dB output louder when playing the DTS-CD (due to DTS-CD LFE level NOT being mastered in accordance with cinema 5.1/DD 5.1 spec -- a known historical 'bug'.)
But if you're saying the DTS-CD sounds fuller than the SACD, that shouldn't automatically apply, because SACDs *may or may not* themselves accord to cinema/DD LFE level spec. The difference then, could be due to 1) more compression in the DTS-CD mastering* and/or 2) the DTS-CD LFE LPF (low pass filtering) was set higher than the SACD's , meaning there's more 'upper bass' content in the DTS_CD LFE, which could make it sound 'too full' overall.
I've 'seen' the LFE of the SACD, from my ripped disc file; it starts rolling off at 80khz and is at -120dB at 250Hz (no brickwall in view). I'd like to get my hands on a rip of the DTS-CD and compare their LFEs. (It's not quite apples to apples if the mixes are actually different, though.)
*I have the DVDA. The DVDA and SACD mixes are the same, but there is apparent compression in the front left, front right and (strangely) the rear right channel of the DVDA, compared to the SACD. So this stuff does happen. It makes the DVDA sound more....loud, even if you match center channel levels.
Simon A
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One thing to take into consideration here is that the mastering itself is different and this does influence the listening experience tremendously.
Sure. But the differences I proposed -- compression, LPF -- are mastering differences, too.
And actual mix differences -- different placement of instruments, vocals, effects -- will have even more influence.
the DTS CD has some differences from the Hybrid MultiCh SACD and subsequent DVD-Audio release, including altered channel level balances. the Centre channel is generally more prominent in the mix on the DTS CD and in some instances Rear channel information is more upfront and/or less discrete on the SACD/DVD-A than on the earlier DTS CD.
There are no other DTS original mixed releases that I enjoy as much as these two. Alan Parsons, Brian Wilson, Belinda, and so forth no, these other two really are the pinnacle of what they did do. My opinion is that these two 5.1 mixes are EQ’d on the starchy side. It’s not necessarily brightness which I prefer over dullness - but there is extra starch in the presentation on both.
Is channel content (the mix itself) actually different in the two though (DTS-CD vs DVDA/SACD)? I.e., are they truly separate mixes, or did the DVDA just repurpose the DTS-CD mix?
The DTS-CD is an entirely different mix. The placement of the instruments is more-or-less the same on both versions (drums/bass/lead vocal front, backing vocals/horns rear), but there are some differences regarding the content in each channel.
On the DTS-CD, the drum kit is entirely isolated in the front channels. If you mute them, you won’t hear any trace of it. On the DVD-A and SACD, the drum kit is present at a much lower level in the rears.
On the DTS-CD, the center channel is louder and features a more prominent dry lead vocal. Fagen reportedly disliked giving listeners the ability to isolate his voice to some degree (though it is still mixed with drums & bass - not total isolation like on the Steven Wilson discs) and had Scheiner revise that on the 2nd mix.
The only other difference I can think of is that the tom fill at the beginning of “My Rival” is present on the DTS-CD, whereas it’s missing on the DVD-A and SACD.
Listening to it right now and cannot find anything to criticize. The surround separation is impeccable without feeling/sounding contrived. It all works together for fine combination coming together in my head. Lead vocals are clear without that "glossy" sound. Agree with the prior review of the "fuller" sound. Quite frankly I've noticed this as a fairly consisted trait of the DTS format and sometimes find that I am attracted to that sound more than than the 96/24 tracks that co-exist on some of my surround discs. Just listen to "Hey Nineteen" with eyes closed and you can practically experience the "Cuervo Gold" and "Fine Columbian" as it is repeated in the background vocals. Music quality and sound quality together makes me give this a solid 10 - which I rarely do! Enjoy - if you can still find it!
This a typical Scheiner mix, and that's a real good thing. I haven't A/B'd this to the CD box set and I don't have the new SACD yet. I bet it smokes my OG vinyl though. I went with a 9, as 10's are reserved for the true monster surround mixes. But this is a must for Dan heads and Elliot fans too.
JJR is quite a bit better IMHO. Each channel is way more discrete. It's a favorite.
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