SPOTLIGHT The classical music general discussion thread

[4-earredwonder]

If people are wondering who Paul Dukas was, a reminder you've all heard (presumably) at least one thing by him (which is conducted by Leopold Stokowski, in his first venture into surround sound in 1938):
https://video.disney.com/watch/sorcerer-s-apprentice-fantasia-4ea9ebc01a74ea59a5867853

And might I add, ubertrout..... which Disney termed FANTASOUND!

 

[4-earredwonder]

A hugely enjoyable crossover album which some may have overlooked. Excellent sonics and some nice surround flourishes:

https://www.discogs.com/Larry-Chernicoff-October/release/8834219

 

[steelydave]

Thanks for the clarification and feedback!

I really really wish D/V would provide 30-second samples of their SACD quad content, so I wouldn’t feel like I was diving in blind. I’m so tempted to place a big classical order, but I’m afraid the discs won’t end up discrete enough for my tastes. The only D/V classical(ish) SACD I’ve taken a chance on so far is the Bernard Herrmann film score one, and although I love his music, I didn’t find a ton of discrete excitement to my ears.

So... if I’m significantly more of a discrete guy than an immersive guy... if a priority to me is stuff tickling my ears from the rears (not that I want a totally incoherent mix, of course)... if I’m a big fan of the mixes on, say, the Elton John SACDS, or Fragile, or Larks’ Tongues In Aspic, or (in the D/V library) the Earth Wind & Fire 2fer or Tale Spinnin’... which of D/V’s classical issues are likely to make me the happiest?

Or are my ears the problem, and I just need to recalibrate my expectations for classical quad?

I think you need to recalibrate your expectations, but only to an extent.

I can only speak for the RCA and Columbia Masterworks titles that Dutton Epoch have released, but I'm not sure you'll get much classical quad that has the same kind of dry 4-corner ping-pong action you find in the pop stuff from the same era, but at the same time it doesn't mean that it's ambient surround by any means.

This has as much to do with the difference in approach to recording as anything: with pop music, everything was close-mic'ed in the recording studio, and the musicians were physically separated from each other to an extent, so for example if you just listened to a guitar track on the multitrack, you would hear almost zero drums, or bass, or vocals or anything. That means during the mixing process, you can pan every instrument as far apart from the others as you like, and you don't get any "smearing" (ie the instrument 'leaking' into the mics of other other instruments at all) in the surround soundfield.

Contrast that with classical recordings, where, generally speaking, most or all of a large symphony orchestra (which could number from the dozens up to nearly a hundred musicians) all played their instruments in a large room (concert hall or recording studio) at the same time. Now instead of creating the quad effect during mixdown, the majority of the effect was created by how the musicians were arrayed during the recording - for example on the Epoch release Levine Conducts Mahler the musicians were arranged in a circle around the conductor's podium, and I think a similar arrangement was used for the Tilson-Thomas/Cleveland Symphony Orchestra recording of Orff's Carmina Burana. Having done that, they'd set up their 16 or 24 microphones to try and pick up each section of instruments as discretely as possible, but given (again) that you've got everyone playing in the same room, when the 1st violins play, the microphones for the adjacent instruments are going to pick them up a little bit. and when the tympani guy or cymbal smasher (these are technical terms, trust me) get their one moment in the spotlight, every microphone in the place is going to get some of it. This is partly unavoidable, but it's also partly by design, I think - part of the classical "ethos" is that you record in these huge venues renowned for their acoustics, and you want to pick up some of those acoustics, the reverberations, which give you a sense of the size and grandeur of the environment the music is being played in.

Having said all that, I think generally speaking the Columbia Masterworks quads are more discrete (in a pop sense) than the RCA recordings, probably (like their pop counterparts) to satisfy the limitations of the SQ matrix encoding system. There are some (it seems like they're mostly early ones from '72-'73, in the MQ 30xxx to MQ 32xxx catalog number range) that are ambient mixes (or "concert hall sound" as Columbia called it) with the orchestra in front and reverb in the rears, but the vast majority are truly immersive "middle of the orchestra" mixes.

I'm sure some of the more classically edumacated posters here like @humprof and @ubertrout can chime in with better suggestions, but as someone with a pop background the Epoch releases I've enjoyed most so far from a surround perspective have been the ones that are a bit more contemporary in nature - Copland Conducts Copland: Appalachian Spring (although to my ears the Chavez Piramide part is awful, it sounds like two hippopotamouses having a conversation) and the Tilson-Thomas conducting Gershwin that's part of the 3fer that includes Carmina Burana.

I think all the E. Power Biggs titles (Rheinberger: Two Concertos and Music for Organ, Brass & Percussion, which was marketed as a "Quadraphonic Spectacular") are very discrete, as is Boulez conducting Stravinsky's Pulcinella Suite, which was mixed for quad by Larry Keyes, who did so many of the great Columbia pop quad mixes. Another one of Columbia's quad showoff albums was Boulez Conducts Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra ("The Symphony Orchestra in Quadraphonic Surround Sound - A New Chapter in the History of Recording" it proclaimed!) and as you can see from the cover, it's really trumpeting (I'm killing it with the music puns lately) its surround sound credentials. Zukerman playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons and Four Concertos is also very discrete, but it was a bit too mellow to keep my attention for two album's worth of material.

That's a start anyway - I think as a fellow classical neophyte the best advice I can give you is try and figure out which composers and/or pieces you like first, and then look for surround sound versions, because if you don't like the music, how discretely it's coming out of your rear speakers will be a moot point.

 

[humprof]

Thanks for the clarification and feedback!

I really really wish D/V would provide 30-second samples of their SACD quad content, so I wouldn’t feel like I was diving in blind. I’m so tempted to place a big classical order, but I’m afraid the discs won’t end up discrete enough for my tastes. The only D/V classical(ish) SACD I’ve taken a chance on so far is the Bernard Herrmann film score one, and although I love his music, I didn’t find a ton of discrete excitement to my ears.

So... if I’m significantly more of a discrete guy than an immersive guy... if a priority to me is stuff tickling my ears from the rears (not that I want a totally incoherent mix, of course)... if I’m a big fan of the mixes on, say, the Elton John SACDS, or Fragile, or Larks’ Tongues In Aspic, or (in the D/V library) the Earth Wind & Fire 2fer or Tale Spinnin’... which of D/V’s classical issues are likely to make me the happiest?

Or are my ears the problem, and I just need to recalibrate my expectations for classical quad?

Well, shoot: I was just starting in on this response when @steelydave weighed in, and as usual what he has to say is sensible, sympathetic, and eloquent. I don't know what I can add, especially since--Dave's name-check notwithstanding--I'm not nearly as edumacated on matters classical as, say, @ubertrout.

Anyway: this question comes up from time to time, and I wish I could direct you back to particular posts buried in the 48 pages of this thread (and others). But I really think Dave has mentioned most of the usual suspects, and for my part I would second his recommendations. I might add the Solti La Boheme (if you like Italian opera at all) and the Boulez Gurre-Lieder. (Anything in quad conducted by Boulez is a safe bet, actually, since it seems he was a surround enthusiast and game for recording "in the round.") Bernstein conducting Haydn's Mass in Time of War is good. Most of the the Ormandy stuff originally on RCA is also relatively discrete: Alexander Nevsky, the Shostakovich 15th and (especially) 5th symphonies, Also Sprach Zarathustra.

So yeah: start with one of the discs Dave mentioned featuring a work or a composer you know you like, and adjust your expectations just a bit. And if it's still not doing it for you, you'll only be out twelve quid!

 

[windhoek]

Thanks for the clarification and feedback!

I really really wish D/V would provide 30-second samples of their SACD quad content, so I wouldn’t feel like I was diving in blind. I’m so tempted to place a big classical order, but I’m afraid the discs won’t end up discrete enough for my tastes. The only D/V classical(ish) SACD I’ve taken a chance on so far is the Bernard Herrmann film score one, and although I love his music, I didn’t find a ton of discrete excitement to my ears.

So... if I’m significantly more of a discrete guy than an immersive guy... if a priority to me is stuff tickling my ears from the rears (not that I want a totally incoherent mix, of course)... if I’m a big fan of the mixes on, say, the Elton John SACDS, or Fragile, or Larks’ Tongues In Aspic, or (in the D/V library) the Earth Wind & Fire 2fer or Tale Spinnin’... which of D/V’s classical issues are likely to make me the happiest?

Or are my ears the problem, and I just need to recalibrate my expectations for classical quad?

If you're a fan of Shostakovich 5 then this is the one sure-fire D-V title you're looking for - lots of discrete content and the performance is up to scratch as well.

Fwiw, I've ordered this Mahler 2 SACD and I'll update on the m/c option once it arrives later this week.

 

[jefe1]

Windhoek how are the other works on the Shostakovich like the 15th symphony and the music Michael remixed for quad?
Somewhere I have the quadradisc for the 5th symphony.

 

[windhoek]

Windhoek how are the other works on the Shostakovich like the 15th symphony and the music Michael remixed for quad?
Somewhere I have the quadradisc for the 5th symphony.

I've only listened to the 15th once (the 15th that comes with the Ormandy set) and, sadly, it's is a tame affair compared to the magnificent 5th as far as surround treatment goes. And not for the first time do I get the feeling that Shostakovich only wrote one symphony and simply shuffled the notes and phrases around and presented them over the course of his career as 'new' symphonies; the 5th being the best anagram of course.

I'm still more than happy to say the 5th is well worth the price of admission and no-one should be put off from buying this set based on what I've just said about the 15th (unless you're a big fan of that particular symphony and don't care about hearing it in surround). Love or loathe the 15th, this set is highly recommended!

 

[jefe1]

Thanks for your recommendation Windhoek.
Guess I will put this on my list for my next DV order.

 

[gvl_guy]

I know nothing about classical music, but my spouse is finally a little interested in my quad system. I promised I would try to find some quad albums or, better yet, some multi-channel discs for him to listen to. He says he'd like some Beethoven and/or Brahms, likely conducted by someone rather well-known. (Leonard Bernstein, Arthur Fiedler and John Williams are the only ones that my non-classical brain can think of.)

Can someone recommend something that he might like? Although I'd prefer something available in disc (like an SACD multi-channel) a quad album would also be fine. Thanks!

 

[ubertrout]

This release from the current batch is an obvious one:
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=2CDLX7369Pentatone released Kurt Masur's cycles of the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies as quad SACDs, but they're getting harder to find.
Dutton also reissued Arthur Rubinstein's late cycle of the Beethoven piano concertos as 3 quad SACDs (the last one has the "Hunt" Sonata as a stereo bonus:
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7358https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7345https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7364
Also, on the set of James Levine conducts Mahler, there's a new Michael Dutton quad mix of the Brahms 1st Symphony from the same recording sessions:
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=2CDLX7344
Pentatone released a lot of classical quads that were never commercially issued in the 70s, although the mixes generally aren't that active in the rears: HRAudio.net - Music

Edit to add: you might want to show your spouse the list of Pentatone issues and see what he likes. You can generally get them from the Berkshire Record Outlet for $7 each.

 

[humprof]

Curious for your thoughts - I've really enjoyed his last two books.

Terrific (and long) interview of Ross by Ethan Iverson (ex-The Bad Plus, Mark Morris Dance Company):
https://ethaniverson.com/interview-with-alex-ross/

 

[windhoek]

Noooooooooo, my Mahler 2 by D-V just turned up and I need to leave for work shortly!

A quick listen to the first few minutes suggests it's going to be of a similar standard as the Ormandy Shostakovich 5 by D-V. Probably not as good in terms of surround usage and overall character, which is excellent on the Shostakovich piece, but not a million miles away by the sounds of it. However, Bridgette Fassbaender is on vocals so that's great regardless of everything else!

Fwiw, my usual main speakers are on the bench just now while I try out some bigger speakers so the overall presentation will be different from what I'm used to anyway.

First impressions compared to the only 'discrete' Mahler 2 I've previously heard (Mahler 2 by Zander) are that this is a much better offering.

I've only sampled snippets so take my early views for what they are. I'll put my usual speakers back in place tonight or tomorrow and give it a proper listen sometime over the weekend.

 

[windhoek]

I just listened to the Stokowski Mahler 2 in surround sound and it certainly has a lot going on in the rears as I'd anticipated based on yesterday's quick skim through. It's normally a symphony I really have to be in the mood for; compared to other symphonies by other composers, it's not a symphony one 'enjoys' per se. Don't get me wrong, it's not a symphony one endures either! Perhaps experiences is a more apt word. Anyway, I wasn't entirely in the mood for it, but, even so, I reckon it's a solid B+ and probably an A- when I'm in the mood for it compared to the A+++ that is the Ormandy Shostakovich 5 in surround sound.

If you're not a fan of this symphony then I wouldn't rush out to buy it just because it comes with a very good surround option. If you do like the music, however, then it's probably worth getting.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If you're not a fan of this symphony then I wouldn't rush out to buy it just because it comes with a very good surround option. If you do like the music, however, then it's probably worth getting.

Even if I already have 16 others?

 

[windhoek]

Even if I already have 16 others?

Let me fix that: "...probably worth getting [unless you're Kal]."

 

[Madman Riley]

Lagging behind your collection a bit...

Even if I already have 16 others?

...with an even dozen after receiving the Gergiev/LSO SACD M-ch box set for Christmas.

Expecting to add the D-V release (soon) and yet, no matter how many versions of the "Resurrection" Symphony I own and enjoy, I inevitably return to this one.

Acquiring it became a mission, ending over 2 years ago, with an order from a seller in Germany.
I wrote an AMAZON review of the quest from which I offer this excerpt:

"I've adored this recording for well over 30 years -- all by itself, it made me into a Mahler fan.
And that was the "standard CD," thus the hunt for the SACD pressing became a passion!

"TELARC's Slatkin/St.Louis recording became a car-favorite, on a "premium sound system," during many 400 mile trips from the Twin Cities to Chicago, generally begun early on Sunday mornings when the composition was quite appropriate listening and its length helped eat-up much of the Wisconsin mileage.
Given the solo nature of those drives, the issue of "volume levels" was irrelevant -- to my delight! -- and yet comments in these reviews that take note of it are hardly to be dismissed.

"I'll let other voices here provide you with fascinating comments on the conductor, the symphony orchestra, and the powerful singers and conclude with this:
I own a number of different recordings of Mahler's "Resurrection Symphony" but this is the one to which I return again and again, closing in on 4 decades of appreciation.

And it's even greater on SACD. "

 

[mkt]

Looks good to me. And half price. I have enjoyed the other recordings in this series.

https://www.eclassical.com/haydn-string-quartets-op-76-nos-4-6.html

 

[humprof]

I can't imagine why anyone would need another Beethoven 9th (Kal must have 50 different ones!)--only I know this new one from Manfred Honeck & the Pittsburgh Symphony, out tomorrow on RR, will sound fantastic. Honeck has a nice piece in today's Times walking people through the final movement.

https://referencerecordings.com/recording/beethoven-symphony-no-9/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/arts/music/beethoven-ninth-ode-joy-classical-music.html

 

[H.A.L.]

Listening to the new Shostakovich Symphonies 9/5 from TACET. Surround is excellent -- volume seems a bit low compared to their other SACDs, but hey, you can crank it up without distortion.

 

[mkt]

I can't imagine why anyone would need another Beethoven 9th (Kal must have 50 different ones!)--only I know this new one from Manfred Honeck & the Pittsburgh Symphony, out tomorrow on RR, will sound fantastic. Honeck has a nice piece in today's Times walking people through the final movement.

https://referencerecordings.com/recording/beethoven-symphony-no-9/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/arts/music/beethoven-ninth-ode-joy-classical-music.html

Ouch
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honecks-narcissistic-beethoven-ninth-video-review/