The Official LFE Technobabble Thread!!!

[DennisMabry]

Bringing up the ex-wives really brings this thread into a darker place. I have to go and shiver for a while.

Oh yeah, let's not go there. Could be a whole other thread.

I had a separate listening room and a TV room until about 1992, and then I finally gave up the ghost and combined them. So Mike, Guy, your both right in your choices. I agree a monitor can be a pain when navigating DVD-A's or BD's but once set up is complete you can always turn it off. I do.

Tis better to have a subwoofer and not need it, than to need a subwoofer and not have it.

Couldn't have said it better!

Dennis

 

[Guy Robinson]

Bringing up the ex-wives really brings this thread into a darker place. I have to go and shiver for a while.

Well I don't have any Ex-Wives but I try to keep my current (for the past 30 years) one separate from my music.

 

[Doug G.]

But if you are using the system for movies as well you are missing the impact that the sub provides unless you have extremely large speakers.

My 8 Advents all working at the same time purdy much equals a couple of subs.

Doug

 

[Guy Robinson]

My 8 Advents all working at the same time purdy much equals a couple of subs.

Doug

With music I agree. I had 4 large original Advents in a stereo system stacked 2 to a side and the bass was good but was not close to what I have with my current system with the sub. The sub hits those extremely low notes with authority. For movies like
The Dark Knight" there is no substitute for a sub.

 

[quadtrade]

[QUOTE=" there is no substitute for a sub.[/QUOTE]

Sure is, Tactile sound, butt kickers! Run full range speakers and a butt kicker, Best way for music!

 

[Guy Robinson]

So those that are using "full size" speakers. What are you using and in what configuration?

 

[Guy Robinson]

So those that are using "full size" speakers. What are you using and in what configuration?

Oh, and the largest drivers in mine are 6.5 inch. There are multiples of these per cabinet. While the bass is pretty good down to 60 hz or so I don't regard these as "large" speakers. The sub adds so much more at the bottom end.

 

[BananaSlug]

So those that are using "full size" speakers. What are you using and in what configuration?

My front speakers are Canadian Energy Connoisseur C-9s with 3 x 6.5 drivers. They are flat (+- 3 db) to about 30 hz and they claim to have usable bass to about 25 hz. Rear speakers are the bookshelf version with the same drivers, only 1 x 6.5 though - they're listed flat to 46 hz. I think that when you tell the players that you don't have a sub they send the LFE to the fronts. For digital sources that's what I have my receiver set to do in bass management. I've never noticed any bass roll off as sounds move around to the rears with either 6 ch direct or any of the bass managed digital sources.

Now, I've never used a sub with this setup so I can't say that it wouldn't improve the sound. But, from what I've read about setting up subs - and the cost of a good sub that is capable of filling in that last 10 hz between 20 - 30 hz I really have no desire to try. I generally watch movies with DD in night mode so that I don't wake the kids. For music I'm still impressed by these speakers even though I've had them for years. And in the end that's what is important; I'm satisfied to the point that I'm not thinking about how to upgrade.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I say no using the LFE channel for multichannel music - let the end user decide whether or not he needs to bass manage a mix, either because his sats are too small (room size or decor issues) or he/she just likes what a sub can do for the low bass frequencies.

I agree. There is no reason for an LFE in music recordings although I appreciate its usefulness for those special effects in movies.

I have two systems. In the main system, I usually run all the speakers full-range (B&Ws: 3x802D + 2x804S) and the sub (jl f113), used only for LFE, rarely ever turns on since this is a music system.

In the other, I do bass manage most of the time (except for stereo) with the fronts (Paradigm Studio/60) crossed at +/-40Hz and the surrounds (Paradigm Studio/20) crossed at +/-80Hz to, at present, a pair of Paradigm subs (Servo15 and Sub15). Again, the subs almost never turn on with music sources although they do with movies and TV.

That said, the main system is in a more forgiving acoustical environment and I have bass-managed that one with all channels crossed-over at 75Hz and found it eminently successful. Bottom line (no pun intended): LFE is for thuds and explosions, not music.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I'm still impressed by these speakers even though I've had them for years. And in the end that's what is important; I'm satisfied to the point that I'm not thinking about how to upgrade.

Me too with my set-up with a sub. I did spend a considerable amount of time setting this up so that I would get the extremely low bass (organ music sounds incredible) integrated with the rest of my system. To the point where I am getting tight tactile bass with music and those wall shaking sounds with the movies. I'm really happy actually.

But I think to answer the original question there should be no bass for music authoured for the LFE. The sub should only kick in for music when you have some of your speakers set to "SMALL" as part of bass management.

 

[BananaSlug]

But I think to answer the original question there should be no bass for music authoured for the LFE. The sub should only kick in for music when you have some of your speakers set to "SMALL" as part of bass management.

I would agree. People using sub/sat systems are using bass management already, why make it more complicated - the sub handling the LFE and the crossed over low frequencies from the 5 main channels. It just seems messy, though maybe in practice it's fine.

 

[Guy Robinson]

I would agree. People using sub/sat systems are using bass management already, why make it more complicated - the sub handling the LFE and the crossed over low frequencies from the 5 main channels. It just seems messy, though maybe in practice it's fine.

I actually find that it is generally fine until you get a disc that is mixed with low bass duplicated in the LFE as well as the other speakers. Sometimes this sums to an unnatural level that cannot be tamed even if the sub volume is turned down until it is almost off. There are few of these those. I regard these an an error in implementation. It rarely works itself out even if you set the main speakers to large. Some cancellation takes place then between the sub and the other speakers.

 

[BananaSlug]

I actually find that it is generally fine until you get a disc that is mixed with low bass duplicated in the LFE as well as the other speakers. Sometimes this sums to an unnatural level that cannot be tamed even if the sub volume is turned down until it is almost off. There are few of these those. I regard these an an error in implementation. It rarely works itself out even if you set the main speakers to large. Some cancellation takes place then between the sub and the other speakers.

Thinking about it, those discs are going to be a problem on almost all systems. In my system those low frequencies are going to be doubled up in the front main speakers. People using sat/sub systems will have it doubled up in the sub. Only people sending the LFE to a non-existent or OFF sub will be saved.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Only people sending the LFE to a non-existent or OFF sub will be saved.

This is very true.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Only people sending the LFE to a non-existent or OFF sub will be saved.

This is very true.

Most powered subs have a power switch.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Most powered subs have a power switch.

And this would be the "OFF" that BananaS was referring to.

 

[BananaSlug]

So maybe I do need one then, one with a remote so that I can turn it off from the sweet spot.

 

[timbre4]

It will bring you joy. I have four so I'm very happy.

 

[DaneelOlivaw]

.......although I appreciate its usefulness for those special effects in movies.

The Enterprise just sounds so wimpy without its ominpresent rumble, even when just relaxing in Ten Forward while Whoopi serves you your ice-filled Altairian-whatever.

I was actually looking for info about the Super Furry Animals' 5.1 dvd version of their Rings Around The World album and stumbled on this article explaining how they put together the surround mix - following is the part that fits into this discussion:

Another luxury the band explored while recording was the use of sub-bass, destined only for reproduction in the low-frequency subwoofer channel in the surround mix. "We used frequencies as low as 20Hz on the sub channel, which would blow ordinary speakers. That was a sound that I'd never worked with before, because normally people just put a shelving EQ to cut out anything as low as that. On one song on the album, 'A Touch Sensitive', which contains a Stooges sample, we made a bass line out of a TR808 bass drum, a real bass drum, and a 20Hz synth tone. You can't hear it on an ordinary stereo -- you can only hear a 'splat' sound at the start of the note, not the sustained sub-bass tone -- but if you're running it through a PA or a 5.1 system with a subwoofer, you'll hear the full thing. We did a similar thing on 'Juxtapozed With U', layering the 808 bass drum with Simmons electronic percussion."

Hmm.....

 

[Guy Robinson]

The Enterprise just sounds so wimpy without its ominpresent rumble, even when just relaxing in Ten Forward while Whoopi serves you your ice-filled Altairian-whatever.

I was actually looking for info about the Super Furry Animals' 5.1 dvd version of their Rings Around The World album and stumbled on this article explaining how they put together the surround mix - following is the part that fits into this discussion:Hmm.....

Haven't played this one for awhile. Just put on "[A] Touch Sensitive". The bass shakes my walls and vibrates my paint leg and shirt. I had forgotten this one. The surround mix in DTS is pretty good as well. So many discs.....so little time to play them...