Tidal Atmos audio differences

[DJ Killmore]

Hi all, new to the forum and first post, but long time surround sound listener.

I've recently got excited about music in Atmos with the release of DSotM and found it quite enjoyable, so much so I picked up Rumors and Best of the Doors. I haven't listened to The Doors yet, but Rumors sounds great! I especially enjoyed the front sound stage with Go Your Own Way.

All that being said, I signed up for a TIDAL 3month trial to check out some more Atmos content, supposedly uncompressed, but the problem I'm running into, and unlike the BluRay's is the audio from track to track is horrible, (despite having audio normalization on). Certain tracks just don't seemed to be mixed well and I have to turn the volume way up or down from track to track. Bon Jovi's New Jersey is one that comes to mind initially. The opening track Lay your Hands on me is VERY heavy in LFE's and vocals are almost mute and coming from nowhere in particular.

I guess I'm wondering if these streaming services are geared more towards headphone listeners, (which I haven't tried since I don't have spacial audio bluetooth ear pods/headphones anyway). I'm also wondering if any of you have noticed this too and perhaps have a reason or better understanding than I do.

But if this is how it is, (for now) with streaming Atmos, I will probably hold of on committing to it.

It's also worth mentioning, it's NOT ALL the streaming Atoms titles, The Police Synchronicity plays great and I think INXS Kick sounded great too, but can't recall as I didn't listen to the whole album.

Anyway, thanks in advance for all responses.

 

[ProgRules]

I also did a 3 month for $2.99 trial of Tidal and was not impressed. Atmos playback was often problematic. I also noticed there were big volume differences between tracks on the same album. And some albums needed to be cranked all the way up on my AVR to get good volume (admittedly high volume, but at the level I often listen at)- which I've never even come close to on any other source. Then there were some albums which didn't play back gaplessly, meaning there were dropouts of several seconds at the beginning of each song- Zappa's Apostrophe for instance.

But don't judge all Atmos streaming by Tidal. Apple Music has been much better (though not perfect). It is cumbersome finding which titles have Atmos, but playback is usually very good.

 

[DrKlahn]

I've been OK with Tidal Atmos. As noted, there is generally a big volume difference you need to account for and be ready to pause at the end of an Atmos album so the next title that plays doesn't damage anything. The difference in track volume within an Atmos album hasn't been much of an issue for me. A couple ticks up or down is all that amounts to in the majority of cases.

The mastering is whatever the Engineer decides to do. Most of the stuff I have played has sounded very good on my 7.2.4 setup. U2 - Achtung Baby is about the only one that I would call bad.

The volume variance is something I hope Tidal addresses. It's really my only big complaint.

 

[DJ Killmore]

OK, well at least it's not just me then.. Not that I'm a big Bon Jovi fan to begin with, but sort of like any 'early adopter', we're always hungry for content, so I checked it out. Again, it's not just a volume thing on that mix, the entire mix seems 'clunky' and not geared towards a home setup. Those LFE's are ridiculous in comparison to the vocals. That's what made me think some of these mixes are just geared towards headphones, AKA a smaller soundstage?

I'll keep having a go at it, but I think I'm already of the opinion if these ever get released to physical media, I would (certainly be selective), but purchase a physical disc.

The record stands now 2 for 2 with physical media and 2 for 5 with streaming. Strictly relating to mix quality.

 

[DJ Killmore]

But don't judge all Atmos streaming by Tidal. Apple Music has been much better (though not perfect). It is cumbersome finding which titles have Atmos, but playback is usually very good.

Trouble with that is, I'm trying to leave 'The Darkside' that is Apple. Albeit, none of that is really going to matter anyway. Everything is pretty much cross-platform, but we can still have our principles. lol

 

[DrKlahn]

Trouble with that is, I'm trying to leave 'The Darkside' that is Apple. Albeit, none of that is really going to matter anyway. Everything is pretty much cross-platform, but we can still have our principles. lol

I hear that. Atmos mixes I've tried on Tidal that sounded great (if I know the engineer I will list it):

Yes (Steven Wilson)
The Who - Who's Next (Steven Wilson)
Duran Duran - Danse Macbre Deluxe (Bob Clearmountain)
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers - Greatest Hits
The Beatles - Revolver (Giles Martin)
Roxy Music - Avalon
Elton John - Diamonds
Madonna - Immaculate Collection

The last 2 artists I'm not a huge fan of, so I might be being generous.

The only album I've listened to lately lately that was a bit underwhelming was Teddy Swims - Lose Control. It mostly felt like the Atmos was more of a reverb/stereo expansion. Not horrible, but I didn't feel like it gained much.

 

[ProgRules]

Trouble with that is, I'm trying to leave 'The Darkside' that is Apple. Albeit, none of that is really going to matter anyway. Everything is pretty much cross-platform, but we can still have our principles. lol

I'm not a fan of Apple either; I'd decided to stop using them- why I tried Tidal. But they offered me 3 months for $10.99 so I signed on again. After that, I'll probably stop streaming, except sporadically, to listen to the mixes I like that don't have physical release (or are crazy expensive, like Apostrophe). I'd like to try Napster- who apparently have Atmos- but don't have an app I can find to stream to my AVR.

 

[jefffloro]

Anyone out there correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Tidal and Apple files are actually stereo binaural files that present immersive experience by creating a listening environment that gives you placement of the speakers in the desired surround format. This is similar to DTS Headphone X, if you have heard them. The file is stereo and "decoded" to play via your headphones what it would sound with discrete speakers placed all around you. That is why you can listen to them with any headphones. All the decoding and placement is done and put into a binaural file. These files are not meant to be played on a true surround system. You would need the actual Dolby Atmos file, which on bluray shows up sometimes as an MLP file or True HD, to decode and send the data to all the assigned speakers. If they are binaural files, you don't need any special headphones. The same goes for Apple. Apple takes the Dolby Atmos file and converts it to its proprietary file format. Playing the binaural file on a full surround system can cause phase problems and that would give you the loss of volume and bass, in case of the LFE. Try listening to the Tidal files on your phone using headphones. You should hear it spread more than stereo and notice activity just behind your ears. There are strict specifications for delivery of files for both Tidal and Apple and they are QC'ed before being posted. I have encounter faulty mixes on both DVD-A and bluray, but most of the time something goes awry when muxing the audio in authoring. Let me know your thoughts and if you can hear the difference on your headphones. I hope this helps.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Anyone out there correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Tidal and Apple files are actually stereo binaural files that present immersive experience by creating a listening environment that gives you placement of the speakers in the desired surround format. This is similar to DTS Headphone X, if you have heard them. The file is stereo and "decoded" to play via your headphones what it would sound with discrete speakers placed all around you. That is why you can listen to them with any headphones. All the decoding and placement is done and put into a binaural file. These files are not meant to be played on a true surround system. You would need the actual Dolby Atmos file, which on bluray shows up sometimes as an MLP file or True HD, to decode and send the data to all the assigned speakers. If they are binaural files, you don't need any special headphones. The same goes for Apple. Apple takes the Dolby Atmos file and converts it to its proprietary file format. Playing the binaural file on a full surround system can cause phase problems and that would give you the loss of volume and bass, in case of the LFE. Try listening to the Tidal files on your phone using headphones. You should hear it spread more than stereo and notice activity just behind your ears. There are strict specifications for delivery of files for both Tidal and Apple and they are QC'ed before being posted. I have encounter faulty mixes on both DVD-A and bluray, but most of the time something goes awry when muxing the audio in authoring. Let me know your thoughts and if you can hear the difference on your headphones. I hope this helps.

Tidal and Apple, last I heard, are actually using lossy 768kbps (I think) Dolby Digital Plus to deliver Atmos audio. Blu-ray uses lossless Dolby TrueHD.

TrueHD-based Atmos is stored as a 7.1 base + Atmos metadata (to decode to higher speaker configurations) and Dolby Digital Plus-based Atmos is stored as a 5.1 base + Atmos metadata. It's discrete surround through and through.

The problem is that many of these mixes on streaming actually just suck. Albums which have mixes that are both on streaming and Blu-ray seem to largely sound the same (aside from lossy/lossless differences, of course), so it's not really a streaming issue, it's a mixing/label issue.

 

[SomethingAnything]

For me, Tidal has some really great Atmos mixed albums, such as Vampire Weekend's new album. And oh wow, New Order's Blue Monday is incredible. The crappy mixes you're hearing may just be that, crappy mixes, and not the streaming platform's fault? I also note plenty of Apple listeners complaining about the same suddenly loud issue.

Having said that, the software does seem pretty glitchy at times, forcing me to restart the telly.

And the thing I most dislike is when you receive a loud crunching sound every so often, when you select a new song. I've never noticed anyone else mentioning this last thing though, so maybe I'm somehow just unlucky with that crunchy sound. Is it just me getting that? I truly hate it. It can make me jump and fear for my speakers.

 

[AYanguas]

The problem is that many of these mixes on streaming actually just suck. Albums which have mixes that are both on streaming and Blu-ray seem to largely sound the same (aside from lossy/lossless differences, of course), so it's not really a streaming issue, it's a mixing/label issue.

It's not really a problem with the mixing in Dolby Atmos. The *same* mix goes either to streaming services or to the Blu-ray. (There could be minor exceptions if different mixes have been made)

The problem is the "conversion" from the Atmos Master file to the final consumer file.

Streaming services use Dolby Digital Plus JOC which is a lossy codec.
Blu-ray use Dolby TrueHD with Atmos which is a lossless codec.

But, additionally, the encoding to the final consumer file may use the Dialnorm parameter incorrectly or arbitrarily that may cause a master volume reduction in the AVRs that cannot "disable" this functionality. This is an issue caused by the technician that make the final encoding to consumer file. We could then extend the responsibility to the label.

Tidal playing is much more sensitive to the Dialnorm effect than Apple. Apple uses Dolby MAT encoding which is hardly affected by a possible wrong Dialnorm. When matching volume levels, Tidal and Apple sound the same to me for the same song.

Depending on the content (electronic beats vs elaborated vocals or full instruments) the difference between lossy streaming and lossless Blu-ray/TrueHD files may be relevant or insignificant. Also, the content on Top/Heigh channels is more negatively affected in the lossy streaming.

 

[Guy Robinson]

So I know that via Apple Music I am getting 7.1 from the Dolby ATMOS mix not 5.1. My receiver is ATMOS capable and it is capturing the ATMOS then passing 7.1 to the speakers. I hear discrete things in the back speakers that aren't in the side/rear speakers so I know it is 7.1 not 5.1.

 

[AYanguas]

So I know that via Apple Music I am getting 7.1 from the Dolby ATMOS mix not 5.1. My receiver is ATMOS capable and it is capturing the ATMOS then passing 7.1 to the speakers. I hear discrete things in the back speakers that aren't in the side/rear speakers so I know it is 7.1 not 5.1.

Apple Music streaming could be delivering lossy DD+/JOC based 5.1 channels file.
Special consideration about Dolby MAT, but I dont know the details.

If your receiver is decoding the Atmos metadata from a DD+/JOC 5.1 file, it will generate discrete content for all your speakers, either 7.1 or 7.1.4 or 9.1.6

A test could be setting your AVR Audio Options to multichannel Input, or Dolby Digital, avoiding the Atmos decoding. Then, without any upmixer, see if your input to the AVR is 5.1 or 7.1

 

[Guy Robinson]

Apple Music streaming could be delivering lossy DD+/JOC based 5.1 channels file.
Special consideration about Dolby MAT, but I dont know the details.

If your receiver is decoding the Atmos metadata from a DD+/JOC 5.1 file, it will generate discrete content for all your speakers, either 7.1 or 7.1.4 or 9.1.6

A test could be setting your AVR Audio Options to multichannel Input, or Dolby Digital, avoiding the Atmos decoding. Then, without any upmixer, see if your input to the AVR is 5.1 or 7.1

Yeah I know all speakers are discrete using my ears. I definitely hear things in the back speakers that aren't in the side/rear speakers so 7.1 is being decoded from the ATMOS.

 

[AYanguas]

Yeah I know all speakers are discrete using my ears. I definitely hear things in the back speakers that aren't in the side/rear speakers so 7.1 is being decoded from the ATMOS.

Sure. Atmos decoding decodes the mix to the available speakers.

Besides, there is a limitation with Tidal Streaming App that if the App does not detect an AVR Atmos capable (via EDID) it switches to the Stereo version, different mix version on their servers. It is not possible to play the multichannel 5.1 DD+ base file unless you use an intermediate device that provides a Full EDID with Atmos capability to the player App. ( I do with a HD Fury Vertex2 in my 5.1 System at the summer house).

Apple music does not have that limitation, and will send the Atmos version so that the AVR decodes what it can.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

Anyone out there correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Tidal and Apple files are actually stereo binaural files

Apple Music is delivered an ADM Atmos master file. The same file used to create TrueHD for blu-ray. It contains all the channels and metadata. The presentation / render depends on your playback equipment.

 

[Guy Robinson]

Apple Music is delivered an ADM Atmos master file. The same file used to create TrueHD for blu-ray. It contains all the channels and metadata. The presentation / render depends on your playback equipment.

I love Apple Music!