Toshiba says HD DVD format isn't dead yet

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CES: Toshiba says HD DVD format isn't dead yet
It lost an important ally, Time Warner, in the hi-def format war

http://www.computerworld.com/action..._and_wireless&articleId=9055682&taxonomyId=15

January 06, 2008 (IDG News Service) -- Two days after it lost an important ally in the high-definition format battle, Toshiba put on a defiant face at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) and declared the HD DVD format is a long way from being dead.

"We remain firm in the belief that HD DVD is the format best suited to the wants and needs of consumers," said Akio Ozaka, head of Toshiba America Consumer Products, at a news conference. He said Toshiba was surprised by the announcement, which came on Friday.

"We are especially surprised that this decision was made in spite of the significant momentum that HD DVD has gained in the U.S. market and other regions," he said.

Warner was the only major Hollywood studio releasing movies on both formats and the decision to go with Blu-ray Disc meant Toshiba has only two major studios, Paramount and Universal, backing its technology.

The decision also left Toshiba with a potential public relations disaster as it came just days before CES, the annual North American gathering of the consumer electronics industry that kicks off officially here on Monday. In response to the Warner news, the HD DVD Promotion Group canceled its news conference, leaving some to conclude that backers of the format were ready to concede defeat.

"As you can imagine this is a tough day for me," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for digital audio and video products at Toshiba America Consumer Products. "It's difficult for me to read all the pundits declare that HD DVD is dead. Clearly the events of the last few days have led you to that conclusion but we've been declared dead before."

Toshiba said a million HD DVD players are currently in the market in North America.

In a statement Saturday, the company also expressed surprise over Warner's move "despite the fact that there are various contracts in place between our companies concerning the support of HD DVD." On Sunday it didn't elaborate on those contracts or what its next move may be in the march to make HD DVD the de facto replacement for DVD for high-definition content.

Toshiba Defiant After HD DVD Setback

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iA0y8iwFYWXZBt84MP_jrLjyVCsgD8U0JK4O0

LAS VEGAS (AP) — Toshiba Corp. executives had a tough moment Sunday, when they had to face reporters just two days after its HD DVD movie disc format was dealt a potentially fatal blow by the defection of Warner Bros. Entertainment to a rival technology.

"It's difficult for me to read the comments of the pundits that HD is dead," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for digital audio and video at Toshiba America Consumer Products. She was speaking at a news conference ahead of the International Consumer Electronics Show, which starts here Monday.

Sally indicated that Toshiba would continue its fight with a Sony Corp.-led group to dominate the market for a replacement to the DVD.

"We've been declared dead before," Sally said.

Only two major U.S. studios now support HD DVD, while five support Sony's Blu-ray disc. Warner is the last studio to put out movies in both formats, but will stop publishing HD DVDs in May.

Akio Ozaka, head of Toshiba America Consumer Products, said the company was surprised by Warner's announcement Friday.

"We were particularly disappointed that the decision was made in spite of the significant momentum HD DVD has gained," Ozaka said.

HD DVD players, practically all of which are made by Toshiba, had their best sales ever in the fourth quarter of last year, Ozaka said.

Sally said HD DVD players represented 49.3 percent of the players for high definition discs sold as of Dec. 22, quoting figures from market research firm NPD. However, the figures don't include sales of Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3 game console, which plays Blu-ray discs. The format also has consistently beaten HD DVD in the number of discs sold.

While Toshiba sounded a defiant note, a media event scheduled for Sunday evening by the North American HD DVD Promotional Group, which includes Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp., was canceled because of Warner's defection.

"We are currently discussing the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and evaluating next steps," the group said in a statement.

Warner said its decision to drop HD DVD was based on consumers' preference for Blu-ray.

The availability of two competing formats, and the confusion and uncertainty it's sowed among buyers, has been widely blamed for the slow adoption of high-definition players in general.

Warner Bros. Entertainment is owned by Time Warner Inc.

CES: HD DVD ain't dead yet, supporters say

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=23211

One of the big questions at CES is how the HD DVD camp would respond to Warner Bros.' decision to throw what most thought was the decisive vote behind Blu-ray DVD. As the largest studio accounting for about 20 percent of movies, the general wisdom was that HD DVD was dead. Long live HD DVD. No more next generation DVD format war.

But the early word from companies like Toshiba, LG and Pinoeer is that the struggle ain't over.

Akio Ozaka, president and CEO of Toshiba America, made no sign the company, which has most driven the HD DVD format, is ready to give up. He said in the Toshiba press conference at CES that HD DVD is still the best format for consumers.

"We are firm in the belief that HD DVD best suits the needs and wants of consumers," he said.

That's not to say the news didn't totally blind side Toshiba. "We are surprised by Warner Bros. announcing its plans to abandon HD DVD later this year," said Ozaka. "We are particularly disappointed that this decision was made despite the momentum HD DVD has gained in the US market and other markets in 2007."

In a somewhat emotional address, Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing digital a/v at Toshiba, said the news had forced her to shift her comments Sunday, giving her a "tough day." But she was still upbeat on HD DVD players, which she said have sold more than 1 million units in North America.

Allan Jason, vice president of marketing for LG said the company will continue to make HD DVD players, like its combo Blu-ray/HD DVD player, as long as Universal and Paramount, the remaining two studios in the HD DVD camp, continue to make movies in that format. Ultimately, LG will wait until there are no more HD DVD movies, it appears.

So, while the Warner Bros. announcement has shaken the HD DVD camp, it's too early to see any white flags. It might be all over but the shouting but we'll have to wait to see when the HD DVD guys actually throws in the towel.

Toshiba HD DVD sales hit 1 mln in North America

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0636863720080106

LAS VEGAS (Reuters) - Japan's Toshiba Corp said on Sunday it sold 1 million HD DVD digital video recorders in North America last year, driven by demand for Internet-delivered content.

Toshiba, reeling from Warner Bros studio's announcement that it would exclusively release high-definition DVDs using the rival Blu-ray format instead of Toshiba's HD DVD technology, sought to stress instead the potential of its recent alliance with Sharp Corp on TV panels.

Toshiba executives made the comments at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.

The high-stakes DVD format battle has made consumers hesitant about buying DVD players and has acted as a damper on an industry now hit by declining sales of traditional DVDs.

(Reporting by Mayumi Negishi, editing by Phil Berlowitz)

Toshiba Third Generation Players Deliver on the Promise of the HD DVD Format
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS54176+06-Jan-2008+PRN20080106

Toshiba says HD DVD "has not lost" despite Warner move
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0633094620080107
 
Ugh! "And away we go.....................!" :D
 
No, it's over... it really is... is it?

But that doesn't mean there will be flood of new blu-ray players sold until they can get the price down much lower. Where are those cheap $150 players? And where is the cheap software to make them? Then it's no big deal.

HD DVD backers reeling as Blu-Ray shines at electronics show

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iL8AKLmMgHDAiRuXv4d5sUiR7Zfw

Quote:
""The decision by Warner will finally resolve the issue," Panasonic chief operating officer Joseph Taylor told AFP.

"The war is over, and this will speed things up. A lot of people have been standing on the sidelines and now it is clear where the future lies."

Taylor agrees with analysts that say if Paramount and Universal also abandon HD DVD, the format is doomed.

Panasonic executives say they aim to be the "industry leader in Blu-Ray."

Silicon Valley analysts feel HD DVD will die a quick death, but wonder whether the outcome will be rendered moot because people are shifting to downloading movies from the Internet instead of buying DVDs."
 
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We have seen no announcement from Paramount or Universal regarding any commitment to continue to support HD DVD and without immediate support from at least one of those two, I think it is already over for all practical purposes. Neither company has sold much software on the format and how could either contemplate a plan now that would get things going? This is absolutely most certainly the beginning of the end. I haven't seen any Microsoft announcement of plans to keep HD DVD afloat either. Hopefully things will progress rapidly and Warner and Universal and Paramount can honor their existing contracts to release software and the owners of HD DVD players can choose to buy the software or not buy the software and HD DVD will have seen its last release with the expiration of the last contract by the three major studios to support HD DVD.

What I think Toshiba will do now is huff and puff about hanging in there and once the return period for the 100,000 HD DVD players sold worldwide last holiday season has expired, announce plans to cease production. Of course the reason given will be that sales of HD DVD players since the Warner announcement were 372 players worldwide, and not the real truth, but that will be the end. With recent announcements of upcoming Blu-ray players at best ever Blu-ray player MSRP's, I think things are looking up for the winner. I hope the market agrees, it is a great format.

Chris
 
I'm still not sure that this means Blu-Ray has won. I may be wrong, and my opinion may be based on being burned by the hi-rez audio debacle (please no flames - I have upwards of 300-400 DVD-As and SACDs and enjoy them thoroughly, but I foresee the day when my player goes kaput and my only option to replace it is a $5 to 10G niche product), but I'm skeptical that the the average consumer is going to upgrade from DVD when the latter format is barely a decade old. It's only in the last couple of years that DVD effectively replaced VHS in the market, and I'm not sure folks are going to rush to another format on the promise that it offers a degree of improvement over a picture that most already think is excellent.

The only way to get the full impact of HD discs is on a 1080p monitor, and those are still a minute and expensive niche market. A 1080i upconverting player coupled with a current generation HD screen offers stellar performance already. Plus, speaking as a cable industry veteran, I am not exaggerating when I say that a lot of consumers, even those with HD sets, do not understand the difference between HD and standard def. Our techs go out, do the installs, go through the training protocols with the customers (including showing them where the HD channels are located on the lineup), and we still find that many think all their channels are HD. The installed base of HD sets is still rather small (though that will begin to turn with the digital transition next year), and the base of hi-res players is even smaller (what is it, around a million total in the US for both formats? Them's hobbyist mnumbers, not mass market).

Also, it's debateable whether the big-box retailers are going to continue carrying dual inventory (standard and BD). Unless software manufacturers start releasing dual format discs en masse for new product, they are going to choose between higher volume/lower margin with a solid back catalogue of product (standard DVD), or lower volume/higher margin BD sales. I don't think the latter will happen until a significant segment of the market upgrades their players, and, again, I don't think that's going to happen if it means the customer is willing to hook up two machines to his set, or toss out and replace the DVD library he's already accumulated.

If I had to look into a crystal ball, I'd say that Blu-Ray is at best a holding pattern until the technical and rights management issues with HD video downloads are ironed out. Consumers have already voted on the issue with music - they've resoudingly opted for greater convenience and on-line ubiquity over sound quality.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 
I can't wait for the HD-DVD "Fire Sale". I won't have any problem dropping $50 on a player and getting some discs free (if that still exists). It may be a while before the discs are re-issued on Blu. My son brought his player home for Xmas and the picture and sound were pretty good. Of course, he did buy a PS3 for himself after watching mine!
 
The problem is that newer and newer technology seems to have a shorter and shorter shelf life. LP records, and audio cassettes for that matter, had decades of commercial viability. VHS tape had a decent run of it as well. It seems that CDs and DVDs are being sqeezed out of the market in much shorter timelines than their predecessors.

The problem is that consumers are getting fed up with their hardware becoming obsolete as the industry pushes their format replacements. The only viable way to pacify consumers and still sell new formats is by replacing hardware with software; and as much as I hate to think about it, downloads seem to be the logical way to do that.
 
Also, it's debateable whether the big-box retailers are going to continue carrying dual inventory (standard and BD). Unless software manufacturers start releasing dual format discs en masse for new product, they are going to choose between higher volume/lower margin with a solid back catalogue of product (standard DVD), or lower volume/higher margin BD sales. I don't think the latter will happen until a significant segment of the market upgrades their players, and, again, I don't think that's going to happen if it means the customer is willing to hook up two machines to his set, or toss out and replace the DVD library he's already accumulated.

Why 2 machines? All of the new players play standard DVDs already. As for DVD-A and SA-CD, the support for them on next generation players is minimal and declining. At least my PS3 plays SA-CDs.

The one thing that I really don't agree with is comparing video to audio. Yes, the masses (ignorant as they may be) have chosen mp3s as their choice for audio. The rest of us audiophiles are just a small minority "niche". The difference to some people between a well-mastered CD and a SA-CD is minimal especially in stereo. But video is different. Your eyes won't let you settle for less. You know clear when you see it and once you've seen it, you don't want anything but high def. The only thing holding back high def is the cost and that's getting better. It's funny that video keeps getting better and better and audio is "circling the rim". Again, at least the high def discs are loading up on the best audio they can. We just have to keep the pressure up and demand the best in both audio and video.
 
CES video: Toshiba defends HD-DVD
EE Times

LAS VEGAS — Toshiba Corp. executives circled the wagons at the Consumer Electronics Show here as they defended the embattled HD-DVD video format.

During a press event at CES on Sunday (Jan. 6), Toshiba executives sought to deflect concerns about an earlier annoucement from Warner Bros. Entertainment that it would back the rival Blu-ray Disc format on an exclusive basis.

EE Times editor-at-large Rick Merritt covered the event and provides his analysis.

Article with YouTube clip:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205210198

Warner Waves Goodbye to HD DVD
By Rob Pegoraro | January 7, 2008; 2:07 PM ET

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2008/01/warner_waves_goodbye_to_hd_dvd.html

LAS VEGAS--Right before CES, Warner Home Video ended its neutrality in the high-definition video format war. Instead of shipping movies in both of the two competing, incompatible formats--Blu-Ray and HD DVD--it announced that it would ship high-def copies of its titles in only Blu-Ray, starting in May.

I sat down with two Warner executives, WHV president Ron Sanders and Kevin Tsujihara, president of Warner Bros.' Home Entertainment Group, this morning to talk about Warner's switch.

They said that sales of high-definition movies determined the move--in terms of them lagging behind DVD sales and being tilted towards Blu-Ray.

"Sales of both high-definition formats were a little disappointing and a little behind where they needed to be," Sanders said. "Of those who did buy, it was clearly a Blu-Ray vote... roughly a 60-40 split in favor of Blu-Ray."

He added that he thought uncertainty over future video formats depressed even the sales of regular DVDs, which were down about 3 percent this year.

Blu-Ray does incorporate stricter usage restrictions than HD DVD, but Sanders and Tsujihara said that didn't affect the company's decision. (See these summer and winter 2006 columns for more on how these formats work.)

So what about customers who had believed in Warner's format neutrality and had purchased HD DVD players in the expectation that they'd get to watch Warner's releases on them? Sanders said, "We've gotten some e-mails from some vocal consumers. That's one of the reasons why we wanted to announce sooner rather than later." He said the company is "talking to retailers this week about what should be done if anything to help those consumers who bought HD DVD players."

The executives aren't banking on a move to HD video downloads anytime soon. Tsujihara said it will be a long time, "particularly in the U.S., before you're moving high-definition files around the Internet." That's just about the opposite of what the Motion Picture Association of America seems to think, but Tsujihara said most broadband connections in the U.S. aren't fast enough--and that it's not as easy to grab a title you want off BitTorrent as some people make it out to be.
 
INTEGRA last week announced the release of their first HD DVD player, the model DHS - 8.8. What really bummed me out was the fact the specifications http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHS-8.8&class=DVD&p=f clearly indicate it will not play SACD/DVD-A. :mad: I have been very pleased with the SACD/DVD-A performance of my INTEGRA DPS 10.5 DVD player and was hoping INTEGRA would continue to include this capability when they finally chose a HI-DEF format. To me the message from the manufactures is clear: SACD/DVD-A capability is a non-issue when discussing HI-DEF DVD players.

I don't know if this was the correct thread to post this rant.

Justin
 
INTEGRA last week announced the release of their first HD DVD player, the model DHS - 8.8. What really bummed me out was the fact the specifications http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHS-8.8&class=DVD&p=f clearly indicate it will not play SACD/DVD-A. :mad: I have been very pleased with the SACD/DVD-A performance of my INTEGRA DPS 10.5 DVD player and was hoping INTEGRA would continue to include this capability when they finally chose a HI-DEF format. To me the message from the manufactures is clear: SACD/DVD-A capability is a non-issue when discussing HI-DEF DVD players.

I don't know if this was the correct thread to post this rant.

Justin

That's a bummer... Yes, the website even let's you know that they are not going to add DVD-A / SACD. But then again they also don't have Kodak CD or MP3 playback. There's so much uncertainty with the HD market now, one can still be hopeful these features might be added later by perhaps some other company.

We should all e-mail Oppo and let them know not to drop DVD-A / SACD when making their first HD player, whichever format that is.
 
INTEGRA last week announced the release of their first HD DVD player, the model DHS - 8.8. What really bummed me out was the fact the specifications http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHS-8.8&class=DVD&p=f clearly indicate it will not play SACD/DVD-A. :mad: I have been very pleased with the SACD/DVD-A performance of my INTEGRA DPS 10.5 DVD player and was hoping INTEGRA would continue to include this capability when they finally chose a HI-DEF format. To me the message from the manufactures is clear: SACD/DVD-A capability is a non-issue when discussing HI-DEF DVD players.

I don't know if this was the correct thread to post this rant.

Justin

Well, the question now is whether they will still bring it out with HD-DVD.
 
It's amazing this internet.

If there was no internet this weekend, the WB announcement would not have meant much except disappointing those with HD-DVD players and making those with 'Blu-Ray only' happy. But because of the internet, a wild frenzy of doom and gloom came over the folks who are into this stuff, and the death of a format was "proclaimed" by talking heads and format fanboys, whipping up a huge tidal wave of folks returning discs and players to Amazon and other retailers, causing orders to be cancelled, and creating an environment that would rival North Carolina vs Duke!

Because of this message board runaway, the outlook for HD-DVD is even worse than it would have been with the WB defection on it's own.

Ah, the power of the internet. There is something about a "gloating post" that drives folks wild! :D
 
It's amazing this internet.

If there was no internet this weekend, the WB announcement would not have meant much except disappointing those with HD-DVD players and making those with 'Blu-Ray only' happy. But because of the internet, a wild frenzy of doom and gloom came over the folks who are into this stuff, and the death of a format was "proclaimed" by talking heads and format fanboys, whipping up a huge tidal wave of folks returning discs and players to Amazon and other retailers, causing orders to be cancelled, and creating an environment that would rival North Carolina vs Duke!

Because of this message board runaway, the outlook for HD-DVD is even worse than it would have been with the WB defection on it's own.

Ah, the power of the internet. There is something about a "gloating post" that drives folks wild! :D

Are orders being cancelled and discs and players being returned? I hadn't heard anything about that.
 
INTEGRA last week announced the release of their first HD DVD player, the model DHS - 8.8. What really bummed me out was the fact the specifications http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DHS-8.8&class=DVD&p=f clearly indicate it will not play SACD/DVD-A. :mad: I have been very pleased with the SACD/DVD-A performance of my INTEGRA DPS 10.5 DVD player and was hoping INTEGRA would continue to include this capability when they finally chose a HI-DEF format. To me the message from the manufactures is clear: SACD/DVD-A capability is a non-issue when discussing HI-DEF DVD players.

I don't know if this was the correct thread to post this rant.

Justin

That is a slightly modified Toshiba HD-XA2 which of course can't play SACD or DVD-A either so that is no surprise. I honestly believe Oppo will build a Blu-ray/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/CD player so there is hope. If you can afford that Inegra player, you might be able to afford a Denon or Marantz player if those affiated companies offer Blu-ray/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/CD players. I am hoping for the Oppo as the D&M players would be too expensive for me.

Chris
 
Why 2 machines? All of the new players play standard DVDs already. As for DVD-A and SA-CD, the support for them on next generation players is minimal and declining.

The one thing that I really don't agree with is comparing video to audio... video is different. Your eyes won't let you settle for less. You know clear when you see it and once you've seen it, you don't want anything but high def.

Good point on the 2 machines. Still not sure that BD will sell enough machines in the near term to get traction. Standard def DVD really exploded in the past couple of years when you could get a player for US$100 or less in the supermarket. The DVD units in many homes are only a couple of years old, so it's an open question whether people will be inclined to replace them so quickly.

Plus, hi-def discs are useless without hi-def sets, and saturation penetration of those is still a number of years off. Even though the digital transition is only a year away, cable and satellite companies will still - by federal regulation - be issuing boxes that downconvert the signal to one that can be seen on an analog set, so there will be no pressing reason for consumers to ditch their old equipment - older folks especially.

Regarding picture quality, I can offer this anecdote. My in-laws upgraded their cable service to digital about a year ago. Their new box passes a standard-def signal through on the high-def broadcast channel slots if the box is hooked up to a standard, non-HD set. (The cable company I work for does not do this - the tuner just skips over the number.) The folks are convinced that they are watching HDTV, and I cannot convince them otherwise, even though I'm an exec for a cable company and I'm pretty sure that they love me. I've asked a few of my techs if they've encountered people who think that just because they have an HDTV, every channel they are looking at is in high def, and the answer is a resounding yes, accompanied by laughter. This is in spite of the fact that standard-def channels often look worse on an HD receiver.

We are interested and informed about this stuff because we are hobbyists and follow it. But the majority of people probably are blissfully unaware of it. I'd wager that most of us, if we go home and ask our wives (OK, I know there might be a few ladies who read this board, but let's face it, A-V is a testosterone playground) what BluRay is, they'd respond that they have no idea, but if it has anything to do with that pile of electronic junk in the den, we sure as heck better not bring one home unless we plan to sleep on the couch for the next six weeks:).
 
That is a slightly modified Toshiba HD-XA2 which of course can't play SACD or DVD-A either so that is no surprise. I honestly believe Oppo will build a Blu-ray/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/CD player so there is hope. If you can afford that Inegra player, you might be able to afford a Denon or Marantz player if those affiated companies offer Blu-ray/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/CD players. I am hoping for the Oppo as the D&M players would be too expensive for me.

Chris

Chris:

I hope you are right about Oppo. I do not own one of their players; however, if they do release a player that will play all types of disks I will certainly purchase one.

Justin
 
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