Why can't new equipment play old material

[jaybird100]

We purchased our Yamaha rx-v2700 new in May, 2007. It Sounds like it's pretty much the same as the Denon AVR 3300. It has been a fantastic receiver and has been played almost every day since new. Never a single hiccup. It plays automatically when the tv is turned on and has been that way for many years too. Cannot imagine the hours on this thing. Sometimes cranked up pretty good over the years too. The wolves and coyotes dig it! Our 5.3 system suits us fine as a living room setup. We will not be adding any more speakers in our front room, so Atmos is over for us and if/when 5.1 physical releases end, we'll be totally done. Close now with DTS 5.1 MA being stepped on via Dolby etc.$$ We will never 'stream' anything here..not city folks at all and available 'services' are way too expensive and lack in quality, reliable bandwidth around here. I am sure even today lots of rural areas are in the same boat. Looks like the streaming format will completely take over the chance of any 'new' physical media, except possibly for a few wonderful outfits like SDE and the like. Fortunately, we own a lot of physical media..I mean a LOT. ( I need to take images of all of this stuff...but will take some time scattered all over several rooms cabinets cases etc.). Your Denon is a tank alright, and I do remember reading about that one back then. Even looked at it a few times in a store while visiting family back then too. Our Yamaha is something of a tank too. Not getting rid of it! Just like not get rid of our Oppo, bdp-93, bdp-103 and udp-203 Quality stuff. ~Mike ..By the way.. practicing typing while drinking coffee. Hope you didn't mind me bogating your post! All the best Jaybird..as well all on QQ

Great looking setup there, Mike. I was selling receivers, back in the day, and the Denon really impressed me. Your Yamaha is also fine; that was another line we sold, along with Sony and Onkyo.

 

[ssully]

Summary of current options for decoding (original) Dolby Surround:

Hafler/DynaQuad passive speaker matrix (could also build yourself an active line level simple no logic decoder).

Involve Audio Surround Master (QS decode mode).

Prevail upon DTS to include DTS:Stereo (a 30+ year old Dolby Stereo type competing theatrical matrix encode/decode scheme) in the DTS family of decode modes in A/V receivers (I don't know if there was ever a DTS:Stereo "Pro-Logic" type separation enhancement system).

Prevail upon A/V receiver makers to include Hafler "decoding" (no logic) in their family of fake surround sound creation methods (with clever wording saying it will sort of decode Dolby Surround).


Kirk Bayne

option 5: buy a used AVR that has DPLII.

 

[par4ken]

option 5: buy a used AVR that has DPLII.

That's what I said (if you must have Dolby)! So much fuss about nothing!

 

[jaybird100]

option 5: buy a used AVR that has DPLII.

Any QS or RM decoder will do the job.

 

[kfbkfb]

Any QS or RM decoder will do the job.

Yes, I haven't checked the Involve Audio SM product description - it could be helpful to them to specifically mention the lack of (original) Dolby Surround decoding in A/V receivers (for about the last 10 years) and that the SM will do a good jobs of decoding the large population of Dolby Surround encoded content (Beta & VHS Hi-Fi tapes, CED and LD stereo videodiscs, TV shows made in the 1990s, some DVDs & Blu-rays).

Anyone do a comparison with Dolby Pro-Logic vs SM QS decoding using a Dolby Surround encoded audio special effects laden movie (probably an action or sci-fi movie)?


Kirk Bayne

 

[jaybird100]

Yes, I haven't checked the Involve Audio SM product description - it could be helpful to them to specifically mention the lack of (original) Dolby Surround decoding in A/V receivers (for about the last 10 years) and that the SM will do a good jobs of decoding the large population of Dolby Surround encoded content (Beta & VHS Hi-Fi tapes, CED and LD stereo videodiscs, TV shows made in the 1990s, some DVDs & Blu-rays).

Anyone do a comparison with Dolby Pro-Logic vs SM QS decoding using a Dolby Surround encoded audio special effects laden movie (probably an action or sci-fi movie)?


Kirk Bayne

I've made that comparison. My other receiver, a Marantz with PL II, with the SM connected via multichannel inputs, made that A-B comparison easy. The PL II decoder, in the receiver, was able to place sounds in the correct speakers. I used a test CD for this. When I did the same test with the SM switched in, again, the test signals were correctly placed, but with less bleed into the other channels. The Involve 5.1 mode was selected. When I played a laserdisc movie, again through the SM, you'd have a hard time distinguishing it from discrete.

 

[kfbkfb]

Seems like an excellent opportunity for Involve Audio to promote this benefit of the SM (maybe they can make some charts/graphs showing how close the Involve QS decoding is to DPL decoding).


Kirk Bayne

 

[Owen Smith]

option 5: buy a used AVR that has DPLII.

Yeah right. It's hard enough finding a new one that fits my requirements, chances of finding a good condition used one that fits them are close to zero. And when things need repair, in the current world where there are no repair shops worth a damn, what do you do? In 10 years AVRs with DPLII will be at least 15 years old.

 

[Owen Smith]

Seems like an excellent opportunity for Involve Audio to promote this benefit of the SM (maybe they can make some charts/graphs showing how close the Involve QS decoding is to DPL decoding).

That'll be great when there's a Surround Master with an HDMI output to connect to modern AVRs. Ironically it doesn't need HDMI input, but it may be a benefit for it to decode DD 2.0 over optical or coax as well as LPCM.

 

[par4ken]

Any QS or RM decoder will do the job.

Any SQ decoder as well!

 

[MidiMagic]

Any QS or RM decoder will do the job.

Not quite. The back channel delay is necessary to get rid of the cogging.

 

[jaybird100]

Any SQ decoder as well!

An SQ decoder will decode it to the equivalent of the original Pro Logic.

 

[par4ken]

Not quite. The back channel delay is necessary to get rid of the cogging.

So called cogging is a non-issue! I do not want any artificial delay added either!

 

[atrocity]

The flag for surround would have to be in the DD bitstream. When playing over optical, coax or HDMI to an home cinema amp, the amp gets nothing other than the Dolby Digital bitstream. It knows nothing of wider information held elsewhere on the DVD so a Dolby Surround flag there could only possibly work on DVD players with built in decoder(s) for DPL, DPL II etc and there were very few such players (my Arcam DV137 was one).

That's an excellent point. I'm sure you're right and I'm embarrassed that I didn't think it through!

 

[Owen Smith]

That's an excellent point. I'm sure you're right and I'm embarrassed that I didn't think it through!

Don't worry, 36 years working as a Software Engineer has made me think things through like that. Of course it has the downside that I can't switch off from doing that in normal life.

 

[jaybird100]

Not quite. The back channel delay is necessary to get rid of the cogging.

What cogging? I've never heard any.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

What cogging? I've never heard any.

Oh no. You're going to get Midi started on the cogging (non) issue again...

 

[barfle]

Any SQ decoder as well!

I recall having the audio from my LD player run through my SQD-1000, and the effect was interesting, if not exactly what the producers intended.

 

[par4ken]

I recall having the audio from my LD player run through my SQD-1000, and the effect was interesting, if not exactly what the producers intended.

Since day one I've decoded Dolby Surround via the S&IC. The SQ mode keeps everything up front with the sound effects coming from the rear. I don't think that centre front to centre rear panning works 100% correctly. Most likely it would skew towards the right rear, as what happens with QS (via SQ decoding). I have never noticed a problem/anomaly in actual use.

Most of the time I would use the (S&IC) Stereo Enhance setting so that the sound is stretched around the room with effects still in the rear. The same movies in actual 5.1 (discrete) surround are not nearly immersive enough for my taste. I'll decode the stereo (encoded) soundtrack, thank you! Very effective on anything containing music! Similar effect with Sansui QS Surround mode, but in that case the dialog is reduced in level a bit, making it harder to hear without cranking it up and then you are bombarded by the surround effects.

I also have a Fosgate 360° Space Matrix (model 3601) decoder. It was purchased at a local audio dealers "garage sale" it had a blown rear amplifier. While the repair was easy (blown output transistor) I chose to simply remove the rear amplifiers altogether. I had no use for the rather low quality built in amplifier anyway. This is a real Dolby Surround decoder, containing a Dolby B noise reduction chip it has an Ambiance and Panorama mode in addition to Dolby Surround. This must be the king of non PL decoders. Anyway I had it in my system for awhile and played around with it quite a bit but never liked the sound that it produced in any mode. I didn't use the center channel, rather the phantom center, so it might be a bit more impressive with the center channel in use?

 

[MidiMagic]

What cogging? I've never heard any.

Oh no. You're going to get Midi started on the cogging (non) issue again...

Why do you call it a non-issue? It is quite annoying to me when it happens.

If all of the parts are stationary and none are panned between the speakers on the same side, you won't hear any cogging.

If one of the parts is panned to straight left or straight right, It sounds like it is coming from the front speaker or the back speaker on that side. You have to turn your head to that side to hear it panned correctly.

If the action in a film makes a sound pan around one side from back to front or from front to back, and if you are facing the screen, the sound suddenly jumps from the initial speaker to the final speaker. You have to turn you head toward the side of the sound to hear it pan smoothly.

You can hear these correctly by sitting behind the back speakers.

This happens with every discrete recording I have ever heard that has side images or panning across sides.. When I listened to a 7.1 demo system (playing Top Gun), the panning sound of a jet fighter jumped twice, once from left back to left side and then from left side to left front.

This also happens in sum-difference matrix systems, such as EV-4 and DynaQuad..

The effect is reduced in QS and SQ because of the phase differences between side speakers.

It does not happen with the original Dynaco diamond because all of the pans between speakers are left-right.

In Dolby surround, the panning is heard as it should be. The left-right-front-back channels and the delayed back put the sound image where it goes.

What I want to know is why most of you don't seem to hear this effect.