True for most artists with 'fans' that release expensive boxed sets. They're not oblivious to how many will buy versus pass on a product release. Beatles, Floyd, etc have done this to mostly good results... for them.
Zappa - Apostrophe (50th anniversary set out in Sept!)
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jimfisheye
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The recent-ish live sets they've released hit like bootlegs. IOW, straight readings of the live shows. Frank's curated live releases have his editing stamp and attention to arrangement in the mix. And he's just brutal with being driven by arrangement as he hears it! (For example, he'll unceremoniously drop an instrument part in the mix that doesn't work for him and he doesn't care at all if there's a video version with that musician playing "air guitar" or whatever instrument in that moment.)
And you know, these are like perfect quality full fidelity boots! I think Frank would have hated it but these are really welcome.
Yeah though, why no 7.1.4 mix of the live stuff from multitrack?! Come on now! What kind of unadventurousness is this? I know engineers personally who would love the opportunity to work any of these recordings. One at least. Yeah, it's me.
Floyd? Floyd doesn't release live anything! To the point of frustration! Besides that tired 1974 BBC recording anyway. Which they only mixed in stereo even though the shows were mixed in quad live. Kind of a throw away vibe.
And you know, these are like perfect quality full fidelity boots! I think Frank would have hated it but these are really welcome.
Yeah though, why no 7.1.4 mix of the live stuff from multitrack?! Come on now! What kind of unadventurousness is this? I know engineers personally who would love the opportunity to work any of these recordings. One at least. Yeah, it's me.
Floyd? Floyd doesn't release live anything! To the point of frustration! Besides that tired 1974 BBC recording anyway. Which they only mixed in stereo even though the shows were mixed in quad live. Kind of a throw away vibe.
Import CDs should have it for less. I'm holding off as well.
It will be interesting to see how far this actually goes. Are we just going to get the core studio albums or will we eventually see some of the core ‘live’ albums as well, e.g. YCDTOSA, Broadway The Hard Way, Make A Jazz Noise Here, Zappa In New York. That would be awesome, imo.
jimfisheye
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I'd love to hear anything and everything from the '88 band in surround! And everything else you mentioned of course.
I’m gonna have to have this for the quad mix. I’m a sucker for vintage quad and this is one of the more desirable ones, one of the few first rate “rock” titles left from the 70s era mixes.
If I felt burned by the price of the set I can always sell off the CDs to bring it back down to earth. I sold my CDs and vinyl from the Machine Head 50th deluxe. That took two days to fence.
But Apostrophe was the first Zappa I got into and owned at tine of release. I actually like it much more than Overnite Sensation. And the live material here is going to be much more impressive than that rough Purple boot they tossed at us.
If I felt burned by the price of the set I can always sell off the CDs to bring it back down to earth. I sold my CDs and vinyl from the Machine Head 50th deluxe. That took two days to fence.
But Apostrophe was the first Zappa I got into and owned at tine of release. I actually like it much more than Overnite Sensation. And the live material here is going to be much more impressive than that rough Purple boot they tossed at us.
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izgoblin
Active Member
I'm guessing the price is higher on this one because it has the biggest chance of selling to the casual Zappa fan. I'll certainly grab it for the surround material - it IS an outstanding album - but for me personally, the set is bloated with all of that live material. I would obviously have been happier with a set priced similar to the Overnite Sensation set. Oh well.
Well it depends on the quality of the 1974 live recordings. Has any of the included live material ended up on a YCDTOSA set, or elsewhere?
Normally I'm one who prefers quad mixes over modern surround remixes, but the real value in these releases lies in the Atmos mixes, which are every bit as aggressive as you'd want them to be.
For me the Zappa quad mixes are one of quad's biggest letdowns, especially given the avant-garde/envelope-pushing nature of the artist. Admittedly, I'm a little less familiar with Apostrophe, but the quad mix of Over-Nite Sensation is so much double stereo that you wonder why they even went to the effort of mixing it.
I was hoping the Blu-Ray would reveal that the consumer copies we've had all these years were somehow compromised in terms of separation, but sadly that turned out not to be the case despite the transfer and mastering of the mix being otherwise sonically excellent. I agree that this price point moves it from an easy pre-order to an "I'll have to think about it" but at least with the included Atmos mixes you know that you're getting at least one good surround mix for sure.
For me the Zappa quad mixes are one of quad's biggest letdowns, especially given the avant-garde/envelope-pushing nature of the artist. Admittedly, I'm a little less familiar with Apostrophe, but the quad mix of Over-Nite Sensation is so much double stereo that you wonder why they even went to the effort of mixing it.
I was hoping the Blu-Ray would reveal that the consumer copies we've had all these years were somehow compromised in terms of separation, but sadly that turned out not to be the case despite the transfer and mastering of the mix being otherwise sonically excellent. I agree that this price point moves it from an easy pre-order to an "I'll have to think about it" but at least with the included Atmos mixes you know that you're getting at least one good surround mix for sure.
I completely agree, I was so excited to finally hear Frank’s quad mix and it was a massive let down. Basically no discrete elements, as you say. He was great at mixing in stereo but he didn’t seem to understand what constitutes a good quad mix.
Initially I was underwhelmed by the new 5.1/Atmos of Over-Nite but as I’ve listened closer I’ve realized what a precise and faithful remix job it is with plenty going on all around you!
I always understood that Zappa formed his Discrete record label with the intention of doing quad mixes exclusively for his new recordings. And, of course, WB's CD-4 LP quad system WAS 4 discrete channels, hence, I guess, the label name.
I gotta say I admired Frank more than I liked him. His intelligence and fearless independence were inspiring, as well as his 24/7 work ethic & ceaseless output. Zappa, like John Mayall in the UK, served as a boot camp/grad school for hordes of talented musical up & comers who were willing to temporarily subordinate themselves in Frank's band & touring. I was able to see them live in Iowa City circa 1977, and I'm glad I can say that I saw him.
Even so, I found him coarse & abrasive, so overheated with the need to blaze his own trail that he smoked out some listeners like me. His lyrical conceits were frequently juvenile in a way I wasn't willing to get on board with, and while I was dazzled by his musical literacy & willingness to pull off some extraordinary instrumental wizardry, it honestly got tiresome for me. I likewise couldn't get on his wavelength for '50's doo-*** and avant-garde orchestral music. HOWEVER, as always, no one's "WRONG" to like him, I just frequently find him to be a WAY too spicy of a dish most of the time. Brand new surround reissues are always welcome, though, but I'll pass, thanks!
I gotta say I admired Frank more than I liked him. His intelligence and fearless independence were inspiring, as well as his 24/7 work ethic & ceaseless output. Zappa, like John Mayall in the UK, served as a boot camp/grad school for hordes of talented musical up & comers who were willing to temporarily subordinate themselves in Frank's band & touring. I was able to see them live in Iowa City circa 1977, and I'm glad I can say that I saw him.
Even so, I found him coarse & abrasive, so overheated with the need to blaze his own trail that he smoked out some listeners like me. His lyrical conceits were frequently juvenile in a way I wasn't willing to get on board with, and while I was dazzled by his musical literacy & willingness to pull off some extraordinary instrumental wizardry, it honestly got tiresome for me. I likewise couldn't get on his wavelength for '50's doo-*** and avant-garde orchestral music. HOWEVER, as always, no one's "WRONG" to like him, I just frequently find him to be a WAY too spicy of a dish most of the time. Brand new surround reissues are always welcome, though, but I'll pass, thanks!
You describe my relation with Frank's music perfectly. Not someone I'd want chill with on a sunday afternoon, but objectively amazing nonetheless.
These three 70s albums are the pinnacle for me, somewhat accessible while also showcasing his (and his band's) talents. It was the sweet spot Zappa era. Not as much excites me before or after.
These bluray releases are easy sells for me, because they're the only Zappa I've owned multiple times over the course of my lifetime and music I eagerly return to every now and then [despite having a ton of music made since then I spend much of my time with].
jimfisheye
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As someone who bought everything Frank ever released... The bawdy lyrics are a very small percentage. More jazz/rock fusion and avant garde classical than anything else. Kind of tame compared to a lot of things I've heard too! I'm pretty sure it was the political attacks that got him in trouble. And more Trouble Every Day and Packard Goose than Dicky's Such An ******* too.
I'm not naive. There's some indefensible stuff. Most of the misogyny was him in character brutally making fun of guys acting like that but there are genuinely a couple truly horrific pieces.
Anyway, I agree with these two quad mixes maybe not being demo worthy! They're full mixes though and not just the raw 4 corner thing some of the early quads are. (Some of which are welcome for that, mind you!) Over-Nite surprised me a bit though. He has an extended dynamic range and low end presentation going on that goes beyond what stereo delivery can do with that. It's effective and gives the album weight in a great way. This was thoroughly mutilated on the shared CD-4 I had (Was this one a CD-4? I might have that wrong.) and only revealed on the reissue. And he does have some gratuitous spinning around the room elements in there, if only a few. But this is no Dark Side or ******* Brew is it!
Funny, I thought it was these two albums finally getting reissued that would just make my day but the unexpected 7.1.4 remixes of Waka Jawaka and Grand Wazoo just floored me and are still some of my favorite new 12 channel mixes. The 7.1.4 remix of Over-Nite IS very faithful to the original quad. The quad will be my go to for this one in the end though.
Frank's sarcasm... He didn't just say the things. He really knew how to pick just the right words to just absolutely trigger and enrage his targets! Man, I miss hearing that!
I'm not naive. There's some indefensible stuff. Most of the misogyny was him in character brutally making fun of guys acting like that but there are genuinely a couple truly horrific pieces.
Anyway, I agree with these two quad mixes maybe not being demo worthy! They're full mixes though and not just the raw 4 corner thing some of the early quads are. (Some of which are welcome for that, mind you!) Over-Nite surprised me a bit though. He has an extended dynamic range and low end presentation going on that goes beyond what stereo delivery can do with that. It's effective and gives the album weight in a great way. This was thoroughly mutilated on the shared CD-4 I had (Was this one a CD-4? I might have that wrong.) and only revealed on the reissue. And he does have some gratuitous spinning around the room elements in there, if only a few. But this is no Dark Side or ******* Brew is it!
Funny, I thought it was these two albums finally getting reissued that would just make my day but the unexpected 7.1.4 remixes of Waka Jawaka and Grand Wazoo just floored me and are still some of my favorite new 12 channel mixes. The 7.1.4 remix of Over-Nite IS very faithful to the original quad. The quad will be my go to for this one in the end though.
Frank's sarcasm... He didn't just say the things. He really knew how to pick just the right words to just absolutely trigger and enrage his targets! Man, I miss hearing that!
Before the moment passes, let me mention how onstage Frank never had a single minute without a Winston cigarette in his mouth or in a nearby ashtray while he played guitar. He must have easily been a "two packs a day" guy. An unfortunate reflection of the era (I was a smoker then also), and obviously especially tragic for Frank, who died age 52 I think in '91 or so. "Cancer cures smoking."
Of course, it was undiagnosed prostate cancer that killed him.
Too busy to get a checkup, and too early for the now simple blood test instead of a rectal exam with a gloved middle finger. Could have made that into a song.
Get a checkup, Boomers!
No "drugs" or alcohol, but gallons of coffee to go with the cartons of Winstons.
And not exactly a healthy California diet:
FZ, interviewed by David Sheff, Playboy, April 1993
I still eat burnt weeny sandwiches. It's one of the great things in life.
At least it's a great lunch.
You take a Hebrew National, put it on a fork, burn it on the stove, wrap two pieces of bread around it, squirt some mustard on it, eat it and you're back to work.
Oh man, add those burnt weeny sandwiches with extra carcinogens to the load Frank's lungs were already taking from the Winstons, and it's no surprise that "C" clamped down on him fatally at such a young age.
I'm now 66 BUT grateful to be here to complain about it.
I'm now 66 BUT grateful to be here to complain about it.
quadrifonico
Senior Member
Overpriced. I will buy it for the multichannel mixes. But again countless alternate takes of the same track to justify the price.
Just for convenience, Frank Zappa born 12/21/40, died 12/04/93.
Concert recordings of the best live band that Zappa ever toured with are not, in my opinion, equivalent to "countless alternate takes", mio amico.
But of course, my opinion is influenced by seeing them on that tour 50 years ago, one of the best concerts of my life.
Robin Trower was the opening act, touring behind Bridge of Sighs, and made no impression on me compared to Zappa's playing.
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jimfisheye
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I remember hearing Peaches come on the radio in 1993 at a day job I had then and I just knew. Playing even that "safe" of a Zappa track could only mean one thing.
Hendrix left when I was 3. He was already an immortal when I was old enough to discover him. Zappa was the first larger than life hero to me to die when I was old enough to understand anything and it was just incomprehensible to me that he could just pass away like that.
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