Matrix Quad CD's

humprof · Aug 4, 2017

I need to add an asterisk here. Turns out the Dolby Surround setting actually does a pretty good job with Henry Franklin's The Skipper (drums & cymbals in the rears along with, on the louder tracks, some horns, phased-shifted (?) and softer than they are in the fronts). But with Walter Bishop Jr.'s Coral Keys, not so much. I'm tempted to say that the latter, from 1971, is not in fact QS-encoded, whereas the former, from 1972, is. (The catalog number for Coral Keys is BJ/2 and the cover says "Stereo"; The Skipper's catalog number is BJQD/7 and the cover says "Compatible 4-Channel Stereo/Quadraphonic." So maybe, pace Cai Campbell's claim, only some of the original catalog was recorded in quad?

humprof said:
Thanks for tracking that down, John. Sadly, my new(ish) Marantz NR1607 seems to offer only a plain-vanilla one-size-fits-all "Dolby Surround" setting. I think that setting is supposed to be backwards-compatible for all generations of genuine Dolby encoding, but for these Black Jazz discs it seems to channel an awful lot of info into the center channel and adds noticeable "breathing" and other artifacts in the rears. I'll dig deeper into the setup menus and see if it's possible to fine-tune.

fizzywiggs41 · Aug 14, 2017

All Ears said:
So does that mean that the Brand X timeline cd is encoded?

https://www.amazon.com/Timeline-Brand-X/dp/B00003Q5AI?tag=mfconvert-20

FWIW, these are the quad tracks on the vinyl.

Scott65 · May 21, 2018

fredblue said:
Yes! Well, kind of..

Involve can now present QQ members only with two unique switching options for the Surround Master.

You can choose..

Either (A)
- 1.) SQ "by the book" decoding
+ 2.) Involve/QS,

or (B)
- 1.) SQ "Vinyl" decoding
(superb decoding of old SQ records)
+ 2.) Involve/QS,

or (C)
- 1.) SQ "by the book" decoding
+ 2.) SQ "Vinyl" decoding
(with NO Involve/QS.. but then you couldn't decode QS encoded music, etc.. not entirely sure why you'd want to do this but some users may want the "by the book" SQ decoding plus the SQ decoding for vinyl, I guess..).

what's the difference between SQ 'by the book' and 'vinyl'? I bought an SQ SM and presumably got the 'by the book' decoding - which sounds very good on some youtube SQ uploads I have tried. I don't have any SQ vinyl and will most likely never acquire any so it's probably academic for me.

surround.sound.enthusiast · May 25, 2018

During extensive listening tests between some QQ members, and the guys at Involve Audio, it was determined that decoding SQ records exactly by the book was not quite the same as what the revered vintage SQ decoders were doing. I think it had something to do with the side effect of the entire matrixing process, and that the physical result of matrixing was not exactly as expected by the book, and then the effectiveness of the decoders - whether even the best were hitting the nail on the head back in the day. So, Involve came out with SQ Script and SQ Vinyl.

There was quite a lengthy discussion about it when QQer's started getting their hands on the Surround Masters and started doing A/B comparisons. Since the forum update I have had a difficult time locating that particular thread.

quadtrade · Jun 24, 2018

fizzywiggs41 said:
FWIW, these are the quad tracks on the vinyl.

View attachment 30391 View attachment 30392

No. This sq disc was done by a fellow in LA. Super quad enthusiast in the day ran a Evolution mail order and a newsletter. bet the CD came much later from a 2 channel source. But worth a check. The record is amazing. Might be best lp i ever heard. Evolution evolved into laserdiscs and home theater. Brad and I did a demo and greeting at one of his super sales in Thousand Oaks. He sold off tons of laserdiscs cheap a couple times a year. We were there to just promote DTS. Image just released a bunch of DTS laserdiscs and Brad was promoting them in the catalog we handed out at the start. DVD did not appear for over a year after that moment.

fizzywiggs41 · Jun 25, 2018

quadtrade said:
No. This sq disc was done by a fellow in LA. Super quad enthusiast in the day ran a Evolution mail order and a newsletter. bet the CD came much later from a 2 channel source. But worth a check. The record is amazing. Might be best lp i ever heard. Evolution evolved into laserdiscs and home theater. Brad and I did a demo and greeting at one of his super sales in Thousand Oaks. He sold off tons of laserdiscs cheap a couple times a year. We were there to just promote DTS. Image just released a bunch of DTS laserdiscs and Brad was promoting them in the catalog we handed out at the start. DVD did not appear for over a year after that moment.

View attachment 33353

Quadtrade,
Can you clarify what the "no " means in relation to the SQ LP Pics ?
I was always curious as to the year of the quad SQ broadcast, or is this recording something other than an FM broadcast .

quadtrade · Jun 25, 2018

I called Jay and asked about the disc again since i could not remember. It came from a recording done for a radio show in Chicago. These were not quad bradcasts, stereo only. The engineer (who i know and dealt with) made a couple hundred of quad recordings from the board tapes he had access to (i have the list), from recording these radio shows. This one sounded spectacular and they got the approval from the band. They only pressed around 50 copies and got a cease and desist order from the real record company. Hope that straightens out the mess. Now it is maybe time to see if i can pry a couple more of these recordings out. The underground Cars is his also. I invited Jay to participate here and maybe he will show up. Since he had a newsletter back in the day, he would be a treasure of knowledge. I know to a lot of these guys, it is way in the past and not interesting anymore. But ya never know, he just might.

MacDaddy · Jun 26, 2018

quadtrade said:
I called Jay and asked about the disc again since i could not remember. It came from a recording done for a radio show in Chicago. These were not quad bradcasts, stereo only. The engineer (who i know and dealt with) made a couple hundred of quad recordings from the board tapes he had access to (i have the list), from recording these radio shows. This one sounded spectacular and they got the approval from the band. They only pressed around 50 copies and got a cease and desist order from the real record company. Hope that straightens out the mess. Now it is maybe time to see if i can pry a couple more of these recordings out. The underground Cars is his also. I invited Jay to participate here and maybe he will show up. Since he had a newsletter back in the day, he would be a treasure of knowledge. I know to a lot of these guys, it is way in the past and not interesting anymore. But ya never know, he just might.

Here is a link I posted a couple of years back I found about the Brand X recording. http://www.genesis-movement.org/php/showcomments.php?uid=6301

fizzywiggs41 · Jun 26, 2018

quadtrade said:
I called Jay and asked about the disc again since i could not remember. It came from a recording done for a radio show in Chicago. These were not quad bradcasts, stereo only. The engineer (who i know and dealt with) made a couple hundred of quad recordings from the board tapes he had access to (i have the list), from recording these radio shows. This one sounded spectacular and they got the approval from the band. They only pressed around 50 copies and got a cease and desist order from the real record company. Hope that straightens out the mess. Now it is maybe time to see if i can pry a couple more of these recordings out. The underground Cars is his also. I invited Jay to participate here and maybe he will show up. Since he had a newsletter back in the day, he would be a treasure of knowledge. I know to a lot of these guys, it is way in the past and not interesting anymore. But ya never know, he just might.

Thanks for clarifying , that's great info .
Hopefully he takes up your offer Quadtrade.
I assume the Jay your referring to is Jay Frank from Evolution and 4-Quad Newsletter fame.

fizzywiggs41 · Jan 12, 2020

Thought I'd wake up this thread...

Anyone else pick up the cd of David Bowie -Serious Moonlight , released this year , no wait 2019 !

. And yes I'm assuming the SQ is still intact.

The Auroran · Jan 13, 2020

fizzywiggs41 said:
Thought I'd wake up this thread...

Anyone else pick up the cd of David Bowie -Serious Moonlight , released this year , no wait 2019 !

. And yes I'm assuming the SQ is still intact.

Unfortunately it isn't SQ, but there is a degree of hall ambiance that might be of use in a basic form of processing.

stevendive · Jan 13, 2020

The Auroran said:
Unfortunately it isn't SQ, but there is a degree of hall ambiance that might be of use in a basic form of processing.

If you’re feeling adventurous then another option for processing stereo that is rarely mentioned these days is the superstereo mode of an ambisonic decoder. From around 1995 and current, Meridian has been making these boxes for home use and a used 565 or 568.2 can be found for little money.

The phasey ambience may lend itself to this sort of treatment and the image width can be adjusted to taste, from virtual mono front to almost wrap around. Generally a setting of 0.5 gives an approx. stereo spread for in phase signals, with the intended, by design, benefit of a better than stereo energy with frequency distribution over the frontal sound stage. The ‘out of phase’ part moves towards the side/rear.

fizzywiggs41 · Jan 16, 2020

The Auroran said:
Unfortunately it isn't SQ, but there is a degree of hall ambiance that might be of use in a basic form of processing.

Really ? It s/b still encoded I would think. It was never a discrete type of mix in SQ for the surrounds for a TATE encode.
But then it is a live recording afterall.

Note that it was not remixed, just remastered.

Jerfo · Mar 16, 2020

All Ears said:
So does that mean that the Brand X timeline cd is encoded?

https://www.amazon.com/Timeline-Brand-X/dp/B00003Q5AI?tag=mfconvert-20

Sorry for the extreme necropost here. Since we're in the middle of our "social distancing" measures here, I have a little more free time to get to some things that I've been meaning to get to for a while.

I'm currently doing an A-B test between the Timeline CD running through my Surround Master (in SQ mode) and the floating-round-the-deepest-recesses-of-the-interwebs DTS-encoded ISO image of the Brand X Squared boot. It's not a scientific test by any means, but the panning sounds identical to me. I'd be willing to wager that the CD has the SQ encoding after all.

Greg Z · Dec 16, 2021

Jerfo said:
Sorry for the extreme necropost here. Since we're in the middle of our "social distancing" measures here, I have a little more free time to get to some things that I've been meaning to get to for a while.

I'm currently doing an A-B test between the Timeline CD running through my Surround Master (in SQ mode) and the floating-round-the-deepest-recesses-of-the-interwebs DTS-encoded ISO image of the Brand X Squared boot. It's not a scientific test by any means, but the panning sounds identical to me. I'd be willing to wager that the CD has the SQ encoding after all.

I didn't know an offical cd had been released so I seeked it out. I ran it through the SQ script and it decodes nicely. It is still a live concert so there isn't
any mind blowing discreteness. The DVD-A from Genesis Movement has the complete Why Should I Lend You Mine plus Earth Dance which isn't on the
CD at all. The DVD-A version also has the quad converted to 5.1 by using the front channels to create a center channel and an LFE channel. It is also
brickwalled. I guess it's a personal choice but I would have preferred the original quad and more dynamic range. I ended up using the two unique songs
from the DVD-A (with the center and LFE channels removed) and the other songs from the CD to make my own Blu Ray version.

fizzywiggs41 · Dec 16, 2021

My latest QS CD .

B B KING - BEST OF

[ BTW -I have 2 copies of this recording on vinyl , one original ABC Records ,and MCA Records. ]

J. PUPSTER · Dec 18, 2021

dr8track said:
The following is a listing of modern day recordings of material that was originally released with matrix quadraphonic encoding. Please submit any titles currently available with encoding intact. If at all possible, include the following info with your submission;

Artist
Title of Release
Catalog Number
Type of Encoding; SQ, QS, etc.

THE LIST

Barclay James Harvest- Once Again (SQ) EMI/Brimstone records BRIM002
Available on their official web site: Barclay James Harvest
Wendy Carlos-Sonic Seasonings (QS) East Side Digital
Dzyan-Time Machine (SQ) Bellaphon/Bacillus 288-09-108
Electric Light Orchestra-Early Years (SQ)
Grateful Dead-Steal Your Face (QS)
Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks- Striking It Rich!(QS)
Keith Jarrett-Treasure Island (SQ?) (Impulse MCAD-39106) from 1988
Ned Lagin/Phil Lesh -Seastones (SQ)
Lucifer's Friend-Lucifer's Friend (SQ)
Mandingo-The Primeval Rhythm of Life (SQ) EMI 8142112
Mountain- Twin Peaks(SQ) Columbia
Nektar-A Tab In The Ocean (SQ) New Release Coming Soon
Mike Oldfield-Tubular Bells (SQ) Virgin CDBOX1
Mike Oldfield-Hergest Ridge (SQ) Virgin CDBOX1, Virgin CDV2013
Mike Oldfield-Ommadawn (SQ) Virgin CDBOX1
Mike Oldfield-Collaborations (SQ) Virgin CDBOX1
Preservation Hall Jazz Band New Orleans Vol. I CBS- CD (SQ) MK34549 1977
Procol Harem-Delicato (Bootleg King Biscuit Broadcast) (SQ)
Sam Rivers-Crystals (QS - not confirmed) Impulse ASD-9286
Archie Shepp-Attica Blues (QS - not confirmed) Impulse AS-9222
Archie Shepp-The Cry of My People (QS - not confirmed) Impulse AS-9231
Gato Barbieri-Chapter 4/ Alive in New York (QS - not confirmed) Impluse ASD-9303
Santana-Lotus 2 CD Set (SQ)
Santana And Buddy Miles - Live! (SQ "maybe")
Sun Ra -Space Is The Place (QS) Impulse
Synergy-Electronic Realizations For Rock Opera (QS)
Tommy- Soundtrack (QS) Polydor 841 121-2

still with us @dr8track ???

I would really like to see this thread get going again and refined with an expansion of your original list here.

Here's three more I don't believe all have been mentioned (I recently decoded these with my SMv2 in QS -Involve 4.0) mode

https://www.discogs.com/release/3019982-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-One-Latin-America
https://www.discogs.com/release/2980317-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-Two-Hasta-Siempre
https://www.discogs.com/release/1087856-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-Three-Viva-Emiliano-Zapata

jefe1 · Dec 19, 2021

I will add I Nomadi Interpretano Gucci
By Nomadi.
Italian EMI CD says SQ on the cover and insert. Comes in a super jewel case.
Liner notes say it was mixed in Quad at EMI/Abbey Road in London.

jefe1 · Dec 20, 2021

J. PUPSTER said:
still with us @dr8track ???

I would really like to see this thread get going again and refined with an expansion of your original list here.

Here's three more I don't believe all have been mentioned (I recently decoded these with my SMv2 in QS -Involve 4.0) mode

https://www.discogs.com/release/3019982-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-One-Latin-America
https://www.discogs.com/release/2980317-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-Two-Hasta-Siempre
https://www.discogs.com/release/1087856-Gato-Barbieri-Chapter-Three-Viva-Emiliano-Zapata

Pupster

Since ABC Impulse was single inventory quad wouldnt all the Gato CDS of those albums be quad encoded?
I notice your list include first issue cds from MCA in 1989 and later issues from 1992 and 2009. So it shouldn't make a difference which CD edition you pick up.

J. PUPSTER · Dec 20, 2021

jefe1 said:
Pupster

Since ABC Impulse was single inventory quad wouldnt all the Gato CDS of those albums be quad encoded?
I notice your list include first issue cds from MCA in 1989 and later issues from 1992 and 2009. So it shouldn't make a difference which CD edition you pick up.

That is my understanding, yes, just showing titles for basic reference purposes there. But usually I try and find first CD label issues, as I have run across some, that with later re-issues (maybe different mastering/labels) have messed up the encoding. Have you had any experience with that?

Here's one where I believe that may have happened (or it's just a crappy mix to begin with)...

original
https://www.discogs.com/release/3757939-Willie-Dixon-What-Happened-To-My-Blues
CD version
https://www.discogs.com/release/9472243-Willie-Dixon-What-Happened-To-My-Blues

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