5.2.2 vs. 5.2.4?

[beerking]

This has been some great input, and I'm convinced at minimum that 5.2.4 is going to be an upgrade worth doing. Already ordered another pair of Focal Dôme Flax (in white!) to make a front ceiling pair. Basically, as far as Atmos diagrams go (not Auro3D, I definitely can't make any of those work up here), they recommend these configurations (thanks, @Sal1950!):

View attachment 81006
Where I'm at today matches the 5.1.2 exactly ('cept I'm 5.2.2). Moving to the right, I'm convinced of the 5.2.4 although my placement for the heights will have to be a little different (see below). I think I should still get the benefit. 7.2.4 is the question mark for me though, because I can't move the rears to where the diagram suggests, my room won't allow it (there's a stairwell there). So, that stacks the rears and sides pretty close to one another (like 3'-4') on the same plane (shown below), and that's where I'm wondering if the upgrade is going to make sense (because I'd want another pair of what I'm using for the rears and that, with stands, would run me like another $2500 so it's not a cheap experiment) and if there'd be enough separation to warrant it.

View attachment 81007

Now, I could create another scenario with more separation but it doesn't align to any suggested placement models...

View attachment 81008

..............................................................................................

To be fair I've never used any diagrams for speaker placement . Although they are handy as a guide.
I don't expect there are many of us who have the perfect room layout, or dimensions, to faithfully copy the advised speaker layout.

I've gone purely on space available and then used the Marantz to manually adjust each speakers output to suit my needs.

 

[RustyStatic]

Are there any stores, near you, that offer free home trials for speakers?

Or perhaps online?

I have a buddy who just said he's got a pair of entry level bookshelf speakers we can toy around with; that should give me a sense!

 

[humprof]

To be fair I've never used any diagrams for speaker placement . Although they are handy as a guide.
I don't expect there are many of us who have the perfect room layout, or dimensions, to faithfully copy the advised speaker layout.

I've gone purely on space available and then used the Marantz to manually adjust each speakers output to suit my needs.

What @beerking said. I found Dolby's diagrams--and their underlying principles--useful as a guide, but in the end I had to adapt them to suit my circumstances (a room with big windows on the left side and a big doorway on the right, 8-foot ceilings and other space constraints restricting me to in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, configuration narrowed further by the placement of a ceiling fan, joists, studs, and angle braces, etc.).

If you can borrow a pair of speakers, then I agree it's worth experimenting with your Confused/What If scenarios to add side surrounds. Wish I could do the same, but my own less-than-perfect room layout just doesn't allow for it. Going from two to four overheads raised my Atmos Enjoyment Level significantly, though.

 

[RustyStatic]

Going from two to four overheads raised my Atmos Enjoyment Level significantly, though.

Awesome, further boosting my confidence in that decision!

 

[RustyStatic]

So here's a question, if you've got speakers available for 7.2.4 and you're listening to a 4.0 or 5.1 mix, where are the rears for those mixes? The "rear surrounds" (red, where I'd want them to be) or the "surrounds" (blue, where I'm afraid they're going to be, because in a 5.2.2 setup, that's the output I'm using)?

And are you aware of an AVR (or specifically, a Marantz 8015) allowing you to dictate which speakers you want to be active depending on the amount of channels in use?

 

[sjcorne]

Funnily enough, we ended up going into a tangent about this just last week:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/7-1-side-vs-rear-speakers.32616/#post-635482The 5.1 (or 4.0) rear channel information will always be directed to the "sides" in 7.1 and beyond, unless you have an additional device in the chain like MiniDSP's NanoAVR that allows you to reassign channels.

 

[RustyStatic]

Funny enough, we ended up going into a tangent about this just last week:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/7-1-side-vs-rear-speakers.32616/#post-635482The 5.1 rear channel information will always be directed to the "sides" in 7.1 and beyond, unless you have a device in the chain like MiniDSP's NanoAVR that allows you to reassign channels.

Ah, yeah that's kinda what I thought. I could see actually digging that... but once again, I won't know anything until I muck around with it. I wonder if JRiver allows for that kind of channel reassignment...

 

[beerking]

So here's a question, if you've got speakers available for 7.2.4 and you're listening to a 4.0 or 5.1 mix, where are the rears for those mixes? The "rear surrounds" (red, where I'd want them to be) or the "surrounds" (blue, where I'm afraid they're going to be, because in a 5.2.2 setup, that's the output I'm using)?

View attachment 81012

And are you aware of an AVR (or specifically, a Marantz 8015) allowing you to dictate which speakers you want to be active depending on the amount of channels in use?

In my set up , the side speakers you have circled in blue are the ones that receive the 5.1 and 4.0 signals.

 

[perzon57]

In my set up , the side speakers you have circled in blue are the ones that receive the 5.1 and 4.0 signals.

Same here, but I have the side speakers further back and the SB directly behind me on the back wall rather close apart. That sounds OK on 4.0 and 5.1 to me.

 

[RustyStatic]

In my set up , the side speakers you have circled in blue are the ones that receive the 5.1 and 4.0 signals.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm gonna dig that since I'm planning to go with this kinda setup:

Kinda defeats the purpose when it comes to 4.0 and 5.1 though. I dunno, maybe I can mess with this scenario and the proximity won't be as much of an issue as I think. I'll have 3-4 feet between the surrounds and rears if I do... seems squished but I'll only know when I hear it.

 

[beerking]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm gonna dig that since I'm planning to go with this kinda setup:

View attachment 81013

Kinda defeats the purpose when it comes to 4.0 and 5.1 though. I dunno, maybe I can mess with this scenario and the proximity won't be as much or an issue as I think. I'll have 3-4 feet between the surrounds and rears if I do... seems squished but I'll only know when I hear it.

View attachment 81015

My rears are postioned at either end behind my sitting position, so nearer each other, than your diagram shows for yours.
I still get the surround effect I'm seeking.
Primarily through tweaking their outputs.
I don't use automatic speaker adjustment.

 

[perzon57]

My rears are postioned at either end behind my sitting position, so nearer each other, than your diagram shows for yours.
I still get the surround effect I'm seeking.
Primarily through tweaking their outputs.
I don't use automatic speaker adjustment.

You don't use Audyssey?

 

[beerking]

You don't use Audyssey?

No I don't....just these old lugholes

 

[mrcond]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm gonna dig that since I'm planning to go with this kinda setup:

View attachment 81013

Kinda defeats the purpose when it comes to 4.0 and 5.1 though. I dunno, maybe I can mess with this scenario and the proximity won't be as much of an issue as I think. I'll have 3-4 feet between the surrounds and rears if I do... seems squished but I'll only know when I hear it.

View attachment 81015

Given your room layout, have you given any thought to mounting rear left and right speakers directly behind you on the wall over the staircase? I think that is what I would do if I had your space. Then you could keep your "sides surrounds" where they currently are and maintain the quad effect for 4.0 mixes.

 

[perzon57]

No I don't....just these old lugholes

Then you have better lugholes than I, I prefer to let Audyssey XT 32 do its job then I use the Multi EQ app to tweak the curve to my liking. Then I set crossovers and confirm levels with my good old Radio Shack.

 

[RustyStatic]

Given your room layout, have you given any thought to mounting rear left and right speakers directly behind you on the wall over the staircase? I think that is what I would do if I had your space. Then you could keep your "sides surrounds" where they currently are and maintain the quad effect for 4.0 mixes.

Yeah, I did kinda consider that but have no idea how I'd run the wires back there unless it was along the wall in a wire chase... not the end of the world, but I'm treading on a little bit of thin ice with the missus already... ha!

But well, I found a new set of the Focal Aria 906's in the right finish (prime walnut, which is what everything else of mine is, and is of course the most expensive option... ugh) for about $700 less than anywhere else is selling them, so I'm gonna throw caution to the wind, snag 'em, and assume I can find a placement scheme that I'm gonna dig. If I can't make it work with the schemes discussed above, what you're suggesting is certainly an option I could play with...

But based on all of this helpful back and forth, and it getting me excited for a level-up as far as an immersive experience is concerned... frig it, I'm in. YOLO and all o' that.

7.2.4, baby.

 

[kap'n krunch]

This has been some great input, and I'm convinced at minimum that 5.2.4 is going to be an upgrade worth doing. Already ordered another pair of Focal Dôme Flax (in white!) to make a front ceiling pair. Basically, as far as Atmos diagrams go (not Auro3D, I definitely can't make any of those work up here), they recommend these configurations (thanks, @Sal1950!):

View attachment 81006
Where I'm at today matches the 5.1.2 exactly ('cept I'm 5.2.2). Moving to the right, I'm convinced of the 5.2.4 although my placement for the heights will have to be a little different (see below). I think I should still get the benefit. 7.2.4 is the question mark for me though, because I can't move the rears to where the diagram suggests, my room won't allow it (there's a stairwell there). So, that stacks the rears and sides pretty close to one another (like 3'-4') on the same plane (shown below), and that's where I'm wondering if the upgrade is going to make sense (because I'd want another pair of what I'm using for the rears and that, with stands, would run me like another $2500 so it's not a cheap experiment) and if there'd be enough separation to warrant it.

View attachment 81007

Now, I could create another scenario with more separation but it doesn't align to any suggested placement models...

View attachment 81008

..............................................................................................

I LOVE the "RUSTY CONFUSED" ones!

 

[kap'n krunch]

I'd never use 90º , it would be lost if someone is besides you and it would overpower the ones in the rears, I'd use 100º at least

 

[RustyStatic]

I'd never use 90º , it would be lost if someone is besides you and it would overpower the ones in the rears, I'd use 100º at least

In this case you mean like 100º with them nudged front, not back (since you mentioned overpowering the rears), right? That's definitely one of the configurations I'm going to play with, and I like the looks of it a lot for Atmos; I'm interested to see how it feels with 4.0 and 5.1.

 

[jlladuke]

That does make sense, and I appreciate the input. I don't care too much about movies; am mainly focused on music—I know there aren't that many titles with "fly over" type movements but agree it would be cool to experience all that can be offered. I'm a little limited by the weird physical configuration of the room (it's in an attic with angled ceiling, a dormer, a stairwell directly behind the sweet spot, etc.)... what I have going on is actually exactly what is pictured in the Atmos diagram for 5.1.2 (except I've got a second sub)... I wouldn't be able to accurately reproduce any of the other Atmos diagrams or any of the Auro 3D ones without making some less than ideal compromises.

That kinda gives me pause... not to mention, again, the expense and the aesthetic of the room starting to get a little overrun by speakers popping out all over the place... though I know not everyone would agree with me on that. Maybe if/when we move houses at some point and I'm able to start with a clean slate in a more ideal space...

Not sure of your room dimensions but, if you have room for a 2nd row of seating, you could sit in the front row for quad & 5.1 listening, and back row for 7.1 and beyond.

In my opinion, if you don't have the depth for a 2nd row of seating, then there's probably not a need to expand from 5.1 to 7.1 at the user level (although I do understand the temptation of continued tinkering & upgrading!).

For what it's worth, I went from 5.1 to 5.2 to 5.2.4 to 7.2.4 in our last home (13W x 19L), and the biggest bang for my buck was puttingin the height channels. This rear vs side channel thing you mention is a real issue for quad and 5.1, and sticking with 5.2.4 solves that problem. I wish there was a standard setting in AVRs to change this, but I've never heard of such a thing.