Abbey Road De-Mix Technology Discussion

[J. PUPSTER]

anyone that's a regular over on the SH forum hear any buzz about this?

Sure hope this is a sneaky legit outing and not Ryan just being wishful about it.

for those not sure what we're talking about here, rtbluray will often change his avatar to an upcoming surround release.

 

[Bill B]

anyone that's a regular over on the SH forum here any buzz about this?

Sure hope this is a sneaky legit outing and not Ryan just being wishful about it.

for those not sure what we're talking about here, rtbluray will often change his avatar to an upcoming surround release.

Well, Revolver in surround would be awesome. Tomorrow Never Knows could be epic.

 

[humprof]

As someone reminded me last week, Giles had this to say about stem separation software a year ago:

"The software is getting a lot better. I’m constantly looking at how we would approach it if I ever get to [remix] Revolver or Rubber Soul, early albums, which a lot of people want me to do."
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...-apple-music-abbey-road-giles-martin-1202832/
As for "Tomorrow Never Knows" specifically:

I don’t believe the [early] records [necessarily were “designed for mono”] – yes they were listened to in mono, but i think they were designed to be – in certain cases – as immersive as possible regardless of how many channels or speakers they were coming out of.​

​

“If you take Tomorrow Never Knows by The Beatles, off Revolver, for instance, that is a psychedelic recording – I’m sure John Lennon would love to have the tape loops flying around his head [in spatial audio]. However because the restrictions that didn’t happen. I do believe that songs and music can be enjoyed in every single format – I also don’t think there’s a certain limited technique that will make someone enjoy a song more than the other.​

https://musically.com/2022/03/14/giles-martin-the-beatles-spatial-audio/

 

[humprof]

anyone that's a regular over on the SH forum hear any buzz about this?

Sure hope this is a sneaky legit outing and not Ryan just being wishful about it.

for those not sure what we're talking about here, rtbluray will often change his avatar to an upcoming surround release.

I think we've already gotten into "this belongs in its own thread" territory here (maybe a mod could oblige . . . is @rtbluray available?), but I think this might be the thread you're looking for, Pup--sort of:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/giles-martin-on-remixing-revolver-and-rubber-soul.1113524/
It references a couple of other relevant threads--and contains one or two interesting links.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I think we've already gotten into "this belongs in its own thread" territory here (maybe a mod could oblige . . . is @rtbluray available?), but I think this might be the thread you're looking for, Pup:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/giles-martin-on-remixing-revolver-and-rubber-soul.1113524/
It references a couple of other relevant threads--and contains one or two interesting links.

It's late here, still need to watch the Stones vid. a bit later.

https://www.abbeyroad.com/de-mix

 

[mandrix]

It's late here, still need to watch the Stones vid. a bit later.

https://www.abbeyroad.com/de-mix

Interesting about Abbey Road studios and demixing. That's big time. Didn't realize there was a complete service like that. Bet it cost some real money.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

As someone reminded me last week, Giles had this to say about stem separation software a year ago:

"The software is getting a lot better. I’m constantly looking at how we would approach it if I ever get to [remix] Revolver or Rubber Soul, early albums, which a lot of people want me to do."
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...-apple-music-abbey-road-giles-martin-1202832/
As for "Tomorrow Never Knows" specifically:

I don’t believe the [early] records [necessarily were “designed for mono”] – yes they were listened to in mono, but i think they were designed to be – in certain cases – as immersive as possible regardless of how many channels or speakers they were coming out of.​

​

“If you take Tomorrow Never Knows by The Beatles, off Revolver, for instance, that is a psychedelic recording – I’m sure John Lennon would love to have the tape loops flying around his head [in spatial audio]. However because the restrictions that didn’t happen. I do believe that songs and music can be enjoyed in every single format – I also don’t think there’s a certain limited technique that will make someone enjoy a song more than the other.​

https://musically.com/2022/03/14/giles-martin-the-beatles-spatial-audio/

Now that I've watched that Stones de-mix from mono utilizing stem separation, a few thoughts to chew on.

I didn't hear anything about re-mixing the stems into surround, more about mastering clean up and presence.

And I really find it interesting, that the Stones management wanted just those older mono recordings cleaned up and re-mixed rather than just working on multi-tracks for surround.

From the SH forum chatter, could be that Giles has already done something with Revolver.

But, as to the technology, just listen to how well that Ella Fitzgerald came out on Apple Spatial Atmos.

This needs its own thread!

 

[sjcorne]

This needs its own thread!

Done

 

[jefe1]

I think Revolver is on everyones list for the next Beatles box set with surround......hope it comes true however it is attained.

 

[Rstaylor]

Interesting about Abbey Road studios and demixing. That's big time. Didn't realize there was a complete service like that. Bet it cost some real money.

From what I read concerning the recent Beach Boys New stereo remixes, the software that's used cost less than $700

 

[ar surround]

Now that I've watched that Stones de-mix from mono utilizing stem separation...

Where did you watch this, Pupster?

 

[ar surround]

From what I read concerning the recent Beach Boys New stereo remixes, the software that's used cost less than $700

Eric Records' people have been doing this for almost 10 years. The results have been variable and generally directly proportional to the sound quality of the source. Green Onions, done in 2013, is magnificent especially when upmixed to quad using the Surround Master. Extremely clean, and if one didn't know better, one would think it was taken from a true stereo source. On the other hand, the digitally extracted stereo (DES) remixes of singles originally recorded utilizing Phil Spector's Wall Of Mud have been awful.

As for the Beach Boys new stereo mixes, the sound quality on that set is not quite up to the standard of the three songs for which I have the Eric Records DES remixes. Those songs are: Surfin' Safari, I Get Around and Be True To Your School (Single Version.)

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Where did you watch this, Pupster?

https://www.abbeyroad.com/de-mix

 

[dabl]

Interesting about Abbey Road studios and demixing. That's big time. Didn't realize there was a complete service like that. Bet it cost some real money.

Actually no re: the 'real money' part. Just real work by one guy. But probably because he did the work while employed at Abbey Road they own the intellectual copyright.

Or maybe you mean Abbey Road charge some real money for the service. That wouldn't surprise me

James Clarke was just an experienced software developer who started at Abbey Road as a business analyst and after hearing engineers at Abbey Road say that de-mix technology didn't exist, was the holy grail and couldn't be done he just started experimenting and came up with a working process.

He talks about all that in this interview and this video

He also talks about other projects his de-mix process has been used on including Hollywood Bowl, A Hard Day's Night movie, 1+, Sgt. Pepper, the White Album, Bowie's Life on Mars, Rush 2112 - The Live Concert, and most recently Cat Stevens Matthew & Son and New Masters.

 

[humprof]

Actually no re: the 'real money' part. Just real work by one guy. But probably because he did the work while employed at Abbey Road they own the intellectual copyright.

Or maybe you mean Abbey Road charge some real money for the service. That wouldn't surprise me

James Clarke was just an experienced software developer who started at Abbey Road as a business analyst and after hearing engineers at Abbey Road say that de-mix technology didn't exist, was the holy grail and couldn't be done he just started experimenting and came up with a working process.

He talks about all that in this interview

He also talks about other projects his de-mix process has been used on including Hollywood Bowl, A Hard Day's Night movie, 1+, Sgt. Pepper, the White Album, Bowie's Life on Mars and Rush 2112 - The Live Concert.

". . . Hollywood Bowl, A Hard Day's Night movie, 1+, Sgt. Pepper, the White Album, Bowie's Life on Mars and Rush 2112 - The Live Concert."

I was just going to comment on that. I think we knew about Hollywood Bowl, but not Hard Day's Night etc. I wonder which "bits" of Sgt. Pepper and the White Album? (And I'd love to hear details about specific tracks on 1+, which I've never hated.)

Maybe we don't have to forever give up on abandoned projects like Aja or Apple Venus. . . .

 

[kfbkfb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_World_Order^^^
The interactive version included the ability to alter the playback of the music by selecting a pre-determined sequence by either Rundgren or one of his four guest producers


Maybe this type of thing is the next step - provide the de-mixed/separated music content in separate data files and the listener does a (re)mix at playback time - if the listener wants the lead vocals placed overhead, between LB and RB (I don't know the correct name for these channels) and the backing vocals rotating counterclockwise in floor level speakers in a 7.1.4 system, they can do their own mix and do that.


Kirk Bayne

 

[humprof]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_World_Order^^^
The interactive version included the ability to alter the playback of the music by selecting a pre-determined sequence by either Rundgren or one of his four guest producers


Maybe this type of thing is the next step - provide the de-mixed/separated music content in separate data files and the listener does a (re)mix at playback time - if the listener wants the lead vocals placed overhead, between LB and RB (I don't know the correct name for these channels) and the backing vocals rotating counterclockwise in floor level speakers in a 7.1.4 system, they can do their own mix and do that.


Kirk Bayne

I like all four of the producers involved in that production! (Half of whom have gone on to do surround mixing.) Presumably "CD-i" isn't playable on anything that's still in service, but I wonder if the Mac or Windows versions of the release are?

 

[Stephen W Tayler]

Whatever techniques might be involved - I rather wish it could all be kept mysterious!! To me it is never about the technical side - just whether one can create a great new mix, record or experience. Mystery!!!!

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.amazon.com/TR-I-World-Order-Todd-Rundgren-CDI/dp/B005S6XDUA(I just ordered one)

https://www.theworldofcdi.com/cd-i-emulation/
I'm not a gamer, but maybe some of the big gaming discussion forums would have info on running CD-i content w/Windows.


Anyway...back to the regularly scheduled thread...


Kirk Bayne

 

[zeerround]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_World_Order^^^
The interactive version included the ability to alter the playback of the music by selecting a pre-determined sequence by either Rundgren or one of his four guest producers


Maybe this type of thing is the next step - provide the de-mixed/separated music content in separate data files and the listener does a (re)mix at playback time - if the listener wants the lead vocals placed overhead, between LB and RB (I don't know the correct name for these channels) and the backing vocals rotating counterclockwise in floor level speakers in a 7.1.4 system, they can do their own mix and do that.


Kirk Bayne

This is what I’m thinking about. A kind of up-remix construction kit that includes music source separation (called de-mix in this thread) and upmix techniques with a kind of push button easy remix, but with lots of options.

A lot of the pieces are there in 2022, but not all, especially in moving beyond 8 channels where just getting more than 8 channels of discrete audio to your playback system is not part of (most) consumer gear (in the hdmi spec, but no one actually sells the bits needed to go beyond 8 channels, on either end).

I guess I have approached this (for 5.1 anyway) with the “fix early stereo” upmix postprocessing scripts included in specscript. For early stereo recordings where the the lead vocal is in one stereo channel only, it’s drag and drop easy to upmix and remix to a modern vocal in the center channel 5.1 version.