Atmos Full-Range Discussion

[fourml8r]

In regards to 7+(?) Atmos speakers, an ideal SACD 5.1 configuration recommends all speakers be identical. So how do you hang 48" tall tombstone sized speakers with 15" bass drivers from the ceiling?

Atmos is not full range. There is no 20Hz (Or even close) content present. That is why Atmos speakers are smaller (Usually 4-8") and only utilize a tweeter and some midrange drivers.

 

[ted_b]

Atmos is not full range. There is no 20Hz (Or even close) content present. That is why Atmos speakers are smaller (Usually 4-8") and only utilize a tweeter and some midrange drivers.

Sorry but this is misinformation! Both Dolby Atmos and Auro-3D provide full range to all of their objects/channels/speakers.

This is why it is important to invest in height and/or top speakers that are timbre-matched to the bed speakers, if possible. I've documented how I'm replacing, already, my heights with the same family of Aerial speakers (in my case using Aerial 5Ts) as I have in the bed layer (20Ts and LR5s).

Or as Dolby phrases it:
"Dolby Atmos audio is mixed using discrete, full-range audio objects that may move around anywhere in three-dimensional space. With this in mind, overhead speakers should complement the frequency response, output, and power-handling capabilities of the listener-level speakers."

 

[fourml8r]

Sorry but this is misinformation! Both Dolby Atmos and Auro-3D provide full range to all of their objects/channels/speakers.

This is why it is important to invest in height and/or top speakers that are timbre-matched to the bed speakers, if possible. I've documented how I'm replacing, already, my heights with the same family of Aerial speakers (in my case using Aerial 5Ts) as I have in the bed layer (20Ts and LR5s).

Or as Dolby phrases it:
"Dolby Atmos audio is mixed using discrete, full-range audio objects that may move around anywhere in three-dimensional space. With this in mind, overhead speakers should complement the frequency response, output, and power-handling capabilities of the listener-level speakers."

"Full range" means nothing if you don't have a specification around it.

Simple test. Unplug your bed layer (Leaving only the Atmos channels). Listen to the actual information. There is no low end content to speak of. And with "Enabled" Atmos the content will be even less since it ONLY does frequencies that can be localized after bouncing off a ceiling.

When you do your initial calibration you will see most ceiling settings go to small with a sloped cutoff at 80Hz. If there were low end content then we would have Atmos subwoofers in the ceiling.

Timbre matching is important in the front soundstage because of the physical distance between speakers is less and the amount of signal they process is very high (Estimates are 70% of the content and up). With overhead speakers they are physically much further from the front soundstage and the amount of content they process is very small. So small differences are not going to be noticed as readily as the front soundstage.

 

[ted_b]

@fourml8r please stop claiming your limited knowledge of immersive recordings as gospel. If Atmos was truly low end limited then modern AVR room correction would not need height or ceiling crossovers, as there would be nothing to cross over. Same occurs at surrounds; AVR calibrations assume surrounds are slightly smaller than main speakers and usually defaults to large or medium (rather than full range XL or whatever)....means nothing except that is the average home setup. Still means that low end energy has to go somewhere. We learned these "object permanence" concepts as babies; just because objects go elsewhere doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

Sorry for the OT....back to PG.

 

[fourml8r]

@fourml8r please stop claiming your limited knowledge of immersive recordings as gospel.

Sorry for the OT....back to PG.

did you try the simple test with using only your Atmos speakers. Do you have any 20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, etc. signal? No. As you stated they have crossovers that limit any low end content from reaching them.

And if using enabled, there will be even less as those low end frequencies are not reflected off the ceiling. I think they run about 100Hz and up.

 

[himey]

did you try the simple test with using only your Atmos speakers. Do you have any 20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, etc. signal? No. As you stated they have crossovers that limit any low end content from reaching them.

And if using enabled, there will be even less low end content as those are not reflected off the ceiling. I think they run about 100Hz and up.

What Atmos mixes do you think comes the closest to achieving full range in the height/top channels? There is no limitation in the format I am sure you will concede, it is just a matter of how a given mix is implemented, correct?

 

[fourml8r]

What Atmos mixes do you think comes the closest to achieving full range in the height/top channels? There is no limitation in the format I am sure you will concede, it is just a matter of how a given mix is implemented, correct?

I agree that is partially correct. Some mixes may have more lower end content relative to others, but none will have 20Hz output since the signal starts sloping the cutoff at 80Hz (For most people). I can't say any particular title stands out in my experience. But if you know of one that seems to have more lower end content please share and we can see if other forum members share the experience.

 

[himey]

I agree that is partially correct. Some mixes may have more lower end content relative to others, but none will have 20Hz output since the signal starts sloping the cutoff at 80Hz (For most people). I can't say any particular title stands out in my experience. But if you know of one that seems to have more lower end content please share and we can see if other forum members share the experience.

What do you mean by most people? The ones using receivers and bass management.

 

[fourml8r]

What do you mean by most people? The ones using receivers and bass management.

Correct. In order to use Atmos properly, you run calibration software (Dirac, Audyssey, YPAO, etc.). The software will measure the performance of your speakers and adjust for response (THX recommendation of 80Hz comes into play for most people) and will also set them with the appropriate delay to achieve the proper immersive experience.

 

[ted_b]

I am taking this unfortunate discussion off of the Peter Gabriel I/O thread, as much as I can (I am not a moderator).
It all started here:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/peter-gabriel-i-o.33141/page-4#post-674197
The forum member is stating that Atmos layers are not full-range. This is unequivocally false info. Dolby (and Auro-3D for that matter) does not limit any object or bed channel in fr. The forum member backs up his claim by stating that most AVRS default to an 80 hz crossover for heights and tops. ?? This is invalid logic for many reasons, not the least of which is: an AVR default is just that, a setting that most people may want to start with. Hell, frankly, if all Atmos height info was limited, there would be no need for an 80 hz crossover as nothing would be crossed over!

Just because the majority of immersive mixers are putting more ethereal (read: high frequency) type effects or capturing acoustic reverberances with their height microphones does not mean that the Atmos spec is limited frequency, just as there is no rule in the NBA that you cannot play if you are less than 5'10" tall. It helps to be very tall, but don't tell that to Mugsy Bogues (5'9" and winner of slam dunk..look it up)..

He then further smears truth and fiction by responding that most people cross over their height speakers. Ya think!!!! Few are putting Soundlabs 8 ft columns on their ceiling. But even my current setup (heights are soon-to-be-replaced SVS Prime Elevations, crossed at 80hz with everything below that going to dedicated non-lfe subs) demostrates that there is plenty of low end in some height examples. The helicopter chase in MI-Fallout send plenty of low energy to those subs, and that's one example. Even good Atmos and Auro-3D music tracks have some lf up there (usually bass managed to somewhere else, of course)

So, yes, in practical terms, one can get away with smaller speakers on the ceiling, but not because there is some empirical limitation from Dolby....

 

[sjcorne]

Ok, let's lower the temperature a little bit. I've moved the relevant posts from the Peter Gabriel thread here and re-titled this one. Feel free to continue the discussion in a respectful manner...

 

[fourml8r]

I am taking this unfortunate discussion off of the Peter Gabriel I/O thread, as much as I can (I am not a moderator).
It all started here:

The forum member is stating that Atmos layers are not full-range. This is unequivocally false info. Dolby (and Auro-3D for that matter)

So, yes, in practical terms, one can get away with smaller speakers on the ceiling, but not because there is some empirical limitation from Dolby....

I am glad to continue the discussion, provided you agree with the moderator and lower the temperature a bit. your responses have been very confrontational.

I can't speak to Auro, but the company filed for bankruptcy so they are on life support if not already dead.

For Atmos mixing / engineering, every title will be completely different. So a bit difficult to make across the board generalizations regarding what is / is not represented frequency wise within the normal 20-20,000Hz range of the Atmos metadata. That is solely up to the engineer.

I do partially agree that the limitation end is more dependent at the reproduction end of the chain. When you run calibration it sets your speakers based on performance. this will be specific to each user and their system / preferences, but let's go with the most common 80Hz (THX recommendation) as this is in line with most ceiling mounted speakers performance. The response will start to taper off based on the crossover order / slope in the speakers. So will you have a flat response down to 20, 30 or 40Hz, etc? No you won't. Will you get any meaningful low frequency signal coming out of an Atmos ceiling speaker? Again, no. Also, most of the calibration software I have used limit the lower crossover point at 60-70Hz. I have seen some lower, but most do not have options going that low. As I mentioned before, the simple test of unplugging the bed layer channels will tell you EXACTLY what the Atmos response is, and there is no low end content there.

So as far as the actual Atmos user experience is concerned, what users are hearing from their system is not full range immersive. And the enabled speakers will be even les sin this area since you will only hear the overhead reflected frequencies.

 

[ted_b]

Ok, let's lower the temperature a little bit. I've moved the relevant posts from the Peter Gabriel thread here and re-titled this one. Feel free to continue the discussion in a respectful manner...

Ok, so I'm out! I cannot sit by and support normalizing misinformation. It happens everywhere nowadays and I thought maybe it would be different here.

 

[sjcorne]

Ok, so I'm out! I cannot sit by and support normalizing misinformation. It happens everywhere nowadays and I thought maybe it would be different here.

I don't support "normalizing misinformation", your post just read with a bit too much vitriol for my liking. For what it's worth, I agree with you on there being full range information in the height channels - all the Talking Heads albums have drums & bass up there.

 

[fourml8r]

I don't support "normalizing misinformation", your post just read with a bit too much vitriol for my liking. For what it's worth, I agree with you on there being full range information in the height channels - all the Talking Heads albums have drums & bass up there.

I will have to listen to those (I have the Talking Heads brick box set to use for comparison). I guess this depends on what you consider "Full range". For me that means 20-20,000Hz. Do you think the drums / bass are going that low in frequency? Drums normally bottom out around 50Hz and bass guitar around 40Hz. So a good portion of those instruments will be in a higher Hz range.

 

[Tribby2001]

Correct. In order to use Atmos properly, you run calibration software (Dirac, Audyssey, YPAC, etc.). The software will measure the performance of your speakers and adjust for response (THX recommendation of 80Hz comes into play for most people) and will also set them with the appropriate delay to achieve the proper immersive experience.

Sorry, but I do not need or want room correction futzing up with my pure DSD audio sources.
My listening "room" (not HT) was specifically designed, acoustically engineered and built for my five identical full range Vandersteen floor speakers.

Atmos - never gonna happen here.

 

[sjcorne]

I'm running Atmos without room correction or bass management and I don't have any complaints.

 

[himey]

I will have to listen to those (I have the Talking Heads brick box set to use for comparison). I guess this depends on what you consider "Full range". For me that means 20-20,000Hz. Do you think the drums / bass are going that low in frequency? Drums normally bottom out around 50Hz and bass guitar around 40Hz. So a good portion of those instruments will be in a higher Hz range.

So tiny speakers are fine for every channel too because the source isn't 20-20?

 

[fourml8r]

Sorry, but I do not need or want room correction futzing up with my pure DSD audio sources.
My listening "room" (not HT) was specifically designed and built for my five identical full range Vandersteen floor speakers.

Atmos - never gonna happen here.

the discussion was relating to Atmos (Overhead), not 5.0 (What you have). The majority of people won't have perfect spaces and / or identical speakers. So calibration can provide some significant benefits in those case. My system has an issue with one main speaker that is impacted by boundary gain. I tried many different systems, but only Dirac was able to really bring it back in line.

 

[fourml8r]

So tiny speakers are fine for every channel too because the source isn't 20-20?

the comment was a direct response to the bass guitar and drums playing through atmos speakers. your main channels should be seeing a lot wider range signal content, especially if set to full range in your calibration or most people use a subwoofer which handles the lower frequencies.

I can say that before I downsized I had a dedicated room with identical full sized KEF Reference towers for fronts and rears. The rears didn't fit into my new space and were replaced by smaller in-wall units with less frequency range and I notice no difference.