Atmos vs 5.1

[key_wiz]

Isn't that what I just said?

I guess. I took your last couple of sentences to mean we were a big part of the market. My mistake. No biggie

All that matters is that we get the mixes!

 

[Sal1950]

We may not be the majority of the consumers in that space, but we are a part of it. And as long as the music continues to sound amazing in a space with a proper speaker setup, I'm really not concerned with how the percentages fall. And some of the younger headphone users may become converts at some point in the future too.

Let's not forget, they may have the headphone market in mind for Atmos today, but all the time before when they were just doing 5.1 mixes, they were for us. I think engineers like Wilson and Parsons who have been with us all along will continue to keep us in mind.

 

[madscot]

I'm curious about something. I'm not an Atmos guy. And I'm unlikely to actually change around my system to get it. But, there are a lot of Atmos recordings now that, in theory, I can play through my 5.1. Many are only available in Atmos.

One of my recent purchases that had both a 5.1 and Atmos mix (I forget which one. Possibly Hootie and the Blowfish) automatically defaulted to Atmos on my OPPO. It sounded "fine" on my system. But when I finally decided to look at the menu, I realized it was the "wrong" version I was playing. When I flipped it to 5.1 I was stunned on the difference. Fuller, brighter and more surround sound coming from my system.

Now, there are some Atmos releases that don't offer that option. They are just Atmos.

When they mix something that is only in Atmos, do we know if someone is actually checking to see the compatibility with 5.1? Is it like back in the days of quad matrix, that someone checked compatibility with stereo?

Just curious

Unfortunately the Hootie & the blowfish is probably the worst atmos mix you could have tried compared to the 5.1, switching between them like you said is night and day. It’s that bad I sold my copy and kept my 5.1 dvd

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Unfortunately the Hootie & the blowfish is probably the worst atmos mix you could have tried compared to the 5.1, switching between them like you said is night and day. It’s that bad I sold my copy and kept my 5.1 dvd

Did you by any chance compare the lossy 5.1 Dolby Digital 'core' (or whatever people prefer to call it) on the BDR-A disc to the one on your DVD-A/V?

 

[Guy Robinson]

I have a 7.1 system with an AVR that decodes Dolby Atmos. For me the outcome to 7.1 from ATMOS is hit and miss. Sometimes the ATMOS is better. If there is a 5.1 track included sometimes it's better than the ATMOS. Pretty much all ATMOS done by Steven Wilson or James Guthrie and others (spotty) is better than the 5.1 provided when played as 7.1.

 

[madscot]

Did you by any chance compare the lossy 5.1 Dolby Digital 'core' (or whatever people prefer to call it) on the BDR-A disc to the one on your DVD-A/V?

I wouldn’t know how to, my choices were atmos, 5.1 and stereo

 

[hipp]

Unfortunately the Hootie & the blowfish is probably the worst atmos mix you could have tried compared to the 5.1, switching between them like you said is night and day. It’s that bad I sold my copy and kept my 5.1 dvd

Agreed!
I managed to buy the DVD Audio version. The difference is more than Significant

Another disappointing Atmos mix is Howard Jones. Both Dream into Action and Human's Lib.

After reading the posts on the expected sound from the new mix, it is disappointing. Vocals are thin and towards the right of the soundstage, which sounds wrong. Sounds "flat"
The Stereo version is excellent.

 

[Marplot]

Only the bonus tracks on the HoJo are ATMOS, the releases themselves are 5.1.

 

[key_wiz]

Unfortunately the Hootie & the blowfish is probably the worst atmos mix you could have tried compared to the 5.1, switching between them like you said is night and day. It’s that bad I sold my copy and kept my 5.1 dvd

I haven't played my Hootie disc yet. still sitting on the pile.

But that's the way I felt about the Seal II disc. The Atmos mix played in 5.1 on my system sounded lifeless and muffled compared to the dedicated 5.1 mix.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I wouldn’t know how to, my choices were atmos, 5.1 and stereo

Not to worry... Do you remember how well the BRD-A's 5.1 DTS-HD MA track compared to your DVD-A/V?

 

[Owen Smith]

Atmos downmixing to 5.1 is hit/miss, and the results partly depend on the settings we have enabled, disabled, and available in our equipment.

Hmm, the only downmixing occurring on playback on a 5.1 system is downmixing the TrueHD 7.1 to 5.1. All audio elements are held in the True HD 7.1 track (or lossy DD+ 5.1 track for streaming Atmos). On top of that there is the Atmos data which tells your AVR how to remove the Atmos audio from the main 7.1 and where it should go in the speaker array for playback.

So most of the work for downmix to playback on 5.1 systems has already been done at mixing and mastering time. The issue is whether the 7.1 was checked for how good it sounds, and how well it further mixes down to 5.1. Evidence suggests some companies or mixers don't check this and just let the Dolby software do it on auto pilot.

Additionally if like me you have an Atmos capable AVR but only a lesser speaker layout (5.0 in my case), instead of just playing the 7.1 True HD track you can tell your AVR to decode the Atmos. This is what I do, and the AVR then renders that to the best approximation it can. This does not always produce the same results as playing the 7.1 True HD though I would argue it should. A good example where the Atmos decoded to 5.0 sounds a lot better is Dark Side Of The Moon.

 

[jimfisheye]

Just for the record, Atmos does not 'un-mix' object audio from the bed audio after the fact. There's nothing trashy like that going on whatsoever! The object audio is delivered in the file metadata. Cleanly and losslessly. If you have the decoder, it gets rendered to your available speaker array. If not, the older codec will combine that metadata with the core audio - thinking it's adding extended resolution like that system does. That's what they leveraged to work this. (And the even older codecs will in fact omit the object audio.) Say what you want about the gaslighting and grifting with access to the decoder but the format needs to be defended against that claim.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

(And the even older codecs will in fact omit the object audio.) Say what you want about the gaslighting and grifting with access to the decoder but the format needs to be defended against that claim.

What older codec would that be? Maybe something that is limited only to 5.1?

If I take a 7.1 ripped Atmos file and convert it to 8 channels of FLAC, there is no information loss. The 1st rip is to MKV. Then MKV conversion to FLAC using Audiomuxer. Are you saying the codecs involved with those software packages are somehow manipulating Atmos data? If a height signal ends up in the 7.1 stream with the Atmos metadata stripped away, you are saying some software process put it there.

 

[Owen Smith]

Just for the record, Atmos does not 'un-mix' object audio from the bed audio after the fact. There's nothing trashy like that going on whatsoever! The object audio is delivered in the file metadata. Cleanly and losslessly.

The object audio is all in the 7.1 True HD is my understanding. I'm aware it's all lossless on BD.

If you have the decoder, it gets rendered to your available speaker array. If not, the older codec will combine that metadata with the core audio - thinking it's adding extended resolution like that system does.

I'd like to see a more detailed explanation of that before I believe it. I've not read anything to date about True HD having a means of extension data that adds resolution. DTS yes absolutely because it is DTS core plus extensions, that's how DTS 24/96 and DTS HD MA work. But True HD is just MLP with 7.1 channels and meta data for things like speech reference level. The Dolby Digital fallback stream is a separate DD stream within the True HD, it isn't used for True HD playback.

That's what they leveraged to work this. (And the even older codecs will in fact omit the object audio.)

Which even older codecs are you talking about? Everything I've read says nothing will be missing from any True HD playback of an Atmos track. And the DD 5.1 fallback is separate so can have everything mixed into it.

Say what you want about the gaslighting and grifting with access to the decoder but the format needs to be defended against that claim.

But you don't give enough detail to backup your claims, which contradict everything published that I've read.

 

[himey]

Additionally if like me you have an Atmos capable AVR but only a lesser speaker layout (5.0 in my case), instead of just playing the 7.1 True HD track you can tell your AVR to decode the Atmos. This is what I do, and the AVR then renders that to the best approximation it can.

I was under the impression that if your speaker layout was 5.1 and not 7.1 or greater, the Atmos decoding option wasn't available?

 

[Bill B]

Unfortunately the Hootie & the blowfish is probably the worst atmos mix you could have tried compared to the 5.1, switching between them like you said is night and day. It’s that bad I sold my copy and kept my 5.1 dvd

That’s interesting. Disregarding the mix altogether, I thought the 5.1 sounded so different from the original album (the stereo version) that I couldn’t listen to it. I believe it was mainly the vocals. The atmos mix sounds much more like the album is supposed to sound even if the mix is less adventurous.

 

[himey]

Everything I've read says nothing will be missing from any True HD playback of an Atmos track. And the DD 5.1 fallback is separate so can have everything mixed into it.

Yes of course. There is no hidden track specifically for Atmos, only metadata. Objects are re-routed to different channels based on the speaker layout.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I was under the impression that if your speaker layout was 5.1 and not 7.1 or greater, the Atmos decoding option wasn't available?

Well it definitely works to decode to 5.1.4, which is what I run Are you thinking 5.1.4 is greater than 7.1. The decode works for Blu-ray and streaming.

It can also do 5.1.2.

 

[Owen Smith]

I was under the impression that if your speaker layout was 5.1 and not 7.1 or greater, the Atmos decoding option wasn't available?

It is on my Arcam AVR31. And I know it is actually doing something rather than just saying Atmos because the DSOTM Atmos goes from being an indistinct mess to sounding sensible with good localisation of effects eg cash register and alarm clocks. Similarly the test tones on the DSOTM disc go from WTF? to coming out where I'd expect on a 5.0 system.

 

[Sal1950]

Well it definitely works to decode to 5.1.4, which is what I run Are you thinking 5.1.4 is greater than 7.1. The decode works for Blu-ray and streaming.

Here too. Side surrounds are not required for Atmos decoding.