Atmos vs 5.1

[Owen Smith]

I've been using it for over 15 years. Since first came out... I know!

I've been using Windows for well over 15 years, but I know little about its internals. I know people who have been driving for decades and know nothing about how cars work.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've been using Windows for well over 15 years, but I know little about its internals. I know people who have been driving for decades and know nothing about how cars work.

With respect that's a very poor analogy, Windows is not just an OS, it offers a huge amount of functionality. Cars incorporate thousands of different technologies and engineering challenges. The tyre technology alone is mind blowing!

Essentially MakeMKV is a re-muxer that also offers disc decryption. It looks at the streams on a DVD or Blu-ray, it decrypts the streams, it de-muxes the streams and it re-muxes the streams into the .mkv container. It does not offer any encoding functionality. It's why it's easy to use.

Other re-muxing softwares such as MKVtoolNix and TSmuxer don't offer any encoding functionality either!

That being said, if you don't believe somebody who's been using it for over 15 years, I suggest you visit the MakeMKV website, read through their documentation and use their software.

 

[barfle]

Would it be possible to encode 7.1.4 Atmos, 1kHz at each of the 11 locations in turn (.1 not needed) and then report where each of these 11 locations ends up appearing in the Dolby Digital 5.1 downmix (using the downmix defaults)?


Kirk Bayne

As I understand Atmos (imperfectly), the overheads are not channel-based, so although it would be possible to locate an object so it coincided with a speaker location, it would come out different for different installations. I’ll find out more once I get my new hardware in and read the manuals (I hope).

 

[LuvMyQuad]

And how do you know that? Is that what the documentation says, or have you looked at the source code? Not disputing what you say, just asking for your source.

Edit: thinking about it, if MakeMKV can pull a stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 track out of a bunch of TrueHD substreams that rely on and cross reference each other, it must be doing some level of TrueHD decoding to understand all that substream information.

So you think Dolby would license a software decoder to an enterprise that specializes in decrypting and ripping copyrighted material from DVDs and blurays. And in addition, makeMKV pays for this decoding capability and then gives it away freely.

Either the TrueHD streams do not "rely on and cross reference each other" or there is some kind of script embedded in the streams themselves that facilitates thier reconstruction. My guess is the former.

Another question. If the 5.1 AC3 stream in the TrueHD stream is meant to provide compatability for older systems that predate all this processing magic, how is that stream constructed? That 5.1 AC3 stream will play over an optical digital connection into equipment with no advanced Atmos or TrueHD decoding of any kind. Equipment that is 25 years old!

 

[ssully]

Flush and 'fold'. Still sounds like shit to us. Folded DOWN to 7.1...and then 5.1. Wonderful! Half ass is great? Again.. We do NOT have an atmosT amp or receiver. Atmost is NOT designed to work properly without it and the minimal recommended speaker set up.. And it sure doesn't

This is nonsense.

*Every* Dolby surround mix is back-compatible with ancient AVRs that only do Dolby Digital AC3. Even if your AVR doesn't decode Atmos, doesn't decode Dolby TrueHD, doesn't decode Dolby Digital+, Doesn't decode Dolby Digital EX --- there will, as has always been the case, still be a good old (lossy) DD 5.1 'core' embedded in there, and your 5.1 system will default to that, as long as there is a Dolby logo on your AVR.

(My AVR can do all of those, but I don't have an Atmos speaker setup, I ahve 5.2 (2 subs). All Atmos discs have a 7.1 bed mix. Some also add a dedicated 5.1 mix. If I play the 7.1 mix it folds down to 5.1. If I play the 5.1, well duh, it just plays it.)

So what exactly are you talking about? If your 'Atmos sounds like shit' and you have the most bare bones DD setup, then your complaint is about technology Dolby has been using for decades, not about Atmos.

 

[ssully]

I've been using Windows for well over 15 years, but I know little about its internals. I know people who have been driving for decades and know nothing about how cars work.

MakeMKV is not decoding anything.

(*Decrypting*, well...)

Think of MakeMKV as (among other things*) a tool for preparing your BluRay for ripping tracks with, e.g., DVD Audio Extractor -- which actually can decode Dolby and DTS audio into PCM files, if you want it to. Otherwise, decoding happens in your AVR or playback software.)


(*You can also use it to simply re-create your disc as a giant file, but now without encryption. You can play that file too, like a disc image. Again, the decoding would happen in your AVR or software audio player)

As part of its process MakeMKV has to analyze the data on each stream present on the disc. That's how it can tell you stuff about channel number, format, placement, etc.

 

[Owen Smith]

So you think Dolby would license a software decoder to an enterprise that specializes in decrypting and ripping copyrighted material from DVDs and blurays. And in addition, makeMKV pays for this decoding capability and then gives it away freely.

No I think MakeMKV have reverse engineered the format and written their own decoder. It at least needs to understand the substreams to do what it does.

 

[jimfisheye]

Software spoofing is in vogue these days and it's been weaponized. I understand questioning everything and trusting very little!

You see the encoded formats offered by Dolby and DTS. You see those programs on the disc when you browse it with MakeMKV along with any straight LPCM programs.

Short of examining the source code and finding reason to question anything there, you accept that those are the programs on the disc. You can rip them to file. The proprietary encoded Dolby and DTS formats rip to encoded files that require their decoders. Everything follows.

Evidence that suggested foul play would have to be something like hearing of a proprietary disc player or software app that had ability to see content beyond what we see with MakeMKV. I don't trust anything anymore either but I haven't seen that! I see the titles listed on the disc displayed in MakeMKV and they rip to files as expected.

We're left with Dolby and DTS files that require their proprietary decoders to finally convert to straight audio files like flac or wavpack. Previously they have licensed their decoders to all software media player apps and ripping apps. Atmos started the new practice of only licensing to hardware makers to limit and sell access that way.

If you don't believe that, you could grab that software and run through it yourself. Prove it to yourself one way or the other. What I'm trying to say in too many words is it's those f'ing AVR products doing the software spoofing, not MakeMKV.

Our technology has reached the point where a mundane digital audio file is full complete fidelity. There isn't an analog style of different levels of quality at different price points anymore. The industry is trying to simulate that under the direction of their marketing department and it's gone a little weird because that leads to intentionally degrading or restricting features now.

 

[inspclouseau]

This is nonsense.

*Every* Dolby surround mix is back-compatible with ancient AVRs that only do Dolby Digital AC3. Even if your AVR doesn't decode Atmos, doesn't decode Dolby TrueHD, doesn't decode Dolby Digital+, Doesn't decode Dolby Digital EX --- there will, as has always been the case, still be a good old (lossy) DD 5.1 'core' embedded in there, and your 5.1 system will default to that, as long as there is a Dolby logo on your AVR.

(My AVR can do all of those, but I don't have an Atmos speaker setup, I ahve 5.2 (2 subs). All Atmos discs have a 7.1 bed mix. Some also add a dedicated 5.1 mix. If I play the 7.1 mix it folds down to 5.1. If I play the 5.1, well duh, it just plays it.)

So what exactly are you talking about? If your 'Atmos sounds like shit' and you have the most bare bones DD setup, then your complaint is about technology Dolby has been using for decades, not about Atmos.

and they ( 'fold' down atmos) still sound like shit compared to a properly mixed DTS MA 5.1 in my home. Now stand up and jump in place some more. And then do it some more

 

[ssully]

and they ( 'fold' down atmos) still sound like shit compared to a properly mixed DTS MA 5.1 in my home. Now stand up and jump in place some more. And then do it some more

I'm sorry about your other apparent issues, but I can't forgive your willful refusal to understand and willful posting of misinformation.

 

[Owen Smith]

and they ( 'fold' down atmos) still sound like shit compared to a properly mixed DTS MA 5.1 in my home. Now stand up and jump in place some more. And then do it some more

Are you complaining about the surround mix, the mastering, or the codec? The first two could be different and the last certainly is when comparing Atmos played in 5.1 vs DTS HD MA 5.1. However, both are lossless codecs so they could produce bit for bit identical results if the disc creators regarded that as a priority (which they probably don't).

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

No I think MakeMKV have reverse engineered the format and written their own decoder. It at least needs to understand the substreams to do what it does.

Oh my god, no they haven't and no it doesn't. Again you're confusing decoding with de-muxing... MakeMKV parses the native streams on the disc, much like MediaInfo does and de-muxes the streams. It does not need to decode the streams.

If you used MakeMKV on a regular basic you would know how it works!

 

[inspclouseau]

Are you complaining about the surround mix, the mastering, or the codec? The first two could be different and the last certainly is when comparing Atmos played in 5.1 vs DTS HD MA 5.1. However, both are lossless codecs so they could produce bit for bit identical results if the disc creators regarded that as a priority (which they probably don't).

I have explained enough over this. Done..... ALL ABOUT THE THE SOUND OF
Have a great day!

 

[ssully]

No I think MakeMKV have reverse engineered the format and written their own decoder. It at least needs to understand the substreams to do what it does.

You can think what you like, but you are by your own admission entirely unfamiliar with the software.

'Understanding the substreams' -- and splitting them (demuxing) -- simply isn't the same as 'decoding' DD or DTS during playback. Decrypting data != decoding audio

MakeMKV has a free trial period, if you care to explore what it really does.

 

[Owen Smith]

I have explained enough over this. Done..... ALL ABOUT THE THE SOUND OF
Have a great day!

I haven't been in this thread since the start so may not have seen your older postings. There are a lot of pages to read.

 

[ssully]

I haven't been in this thread since the start so may not have seen your older postings. There are a lot of pages to read.

'They'(?) have only been ranting about 'AtmosT'(?) here for a week.

 

[jimfisheye]

Randomly downmixing something by algorithm can have random results and random results can often not be as good as intentional work. Duh, right?

If you care about something like that, don't downmix your surround mixes, right?

The new 12 channel mixes are a bit audacious for sure. But if you want to hear something like that, get to it! Of course some of them will fall apart when downmixed. Good music should still be fully good music. Dark Side of the Moon in stereo is still considered an audiophile standard and for good reason! But it sure mises some excitement reduced to stereo, doesn't it! Some 12 channel mixes folded down, even if still 6 or 8 channels, will change the vibe.

 

[jimfisheye]

When you hear a 7.1.4 folddown to 5.1 sounding better than your discrete 5.1 mix, that's when you go back in for some remixing! Sure as hell aren't going to release that or ever even admit it happened!