Beaver and Krause Gandharva Japanese QS LP Report

[Electric Moo]

There is a short docu film about it on youtube, and apparently they shot the whole cathedral session on 16mm film when they recorded it

Article:

RE/P Files: Inside The First-Ever Commercial Quad Recording Sessions - ProSoundWeb

 

[Richard A]

There is a short docu film about it on youtube, and apparently they shot the whole cathedral session on 16mm film when they recorded it

Article:

RE/P Files: Inside The First-Ever Commercial Quad Recording Sessions - ProSoundWeb

Ok thanks will take a look

 

[Richard A]

I have done a thorough comparison between the so called EV Stereo vinyl releases of this album and the Japanese QS Quad version. The Stereo EV versions are mentioned in Mark Anderson's Discography. However his discography is not always correct. For example it was listing the French Vanguard Quad titles that are label printing errors. They are not Quad (as I found to my cost) which suggests listings were added to the discography that had not actually been heard by Mark. Having now heard all vinyl versions of this album I can confirm that the only one that is in Quad is the Japanese QS Vinyl. All the others are bog standard stereo. I don't know what the so called EV versions are circulating as digital files but they are probably stereo that's been processed in someway. The Quad Discography needs amending.

 

[Richard A]

Ironically, according to Mark Anderson's QUADRAPHONIC DISCOGRAPHY, Beaver and Krause's Gandharva and All Good Men both had QUAD releases and are on the Warner Brother's label



BEAVER & KRAUSE -
All Good Men. Warner Brothers BS-2624 (EV) [US & Australia]]
Gandharva. Warner Bros. WS-1909 (EV) [US, Cabada, Venezuela], QP-8177W
(QS) [Japan], K 46130 (EV) [UK]
{The titles above where released only in quad, no stereo version known}

I expressed interest that WARNER/RHINO as part of their renewed QUADIO program might release them as part of the series and Foraging Rhino himself even expressed interest in GANDHARVA, which I agree is a gorgeous album.

Fingers crossed that at some point if they can locate the analogue QUAD masters, we may one day see both released on BD~A 192/24!

I believe that is an error in the discography. No evidence these are encoded when you play them and the Japanese one clearly is Quad as it is marked as Quad and you can hear its Quad. I have all versions and have compared them.

 

[steelydave]

I have done a thorough comparison between the so called EV Stereo vinyl releases of this album and the Japanese QS Quad version. The Stereo EV versions are mentioned in Mark Anderson's Discography. However his discography is not always correct. For example it was listing the French Vanguard Quad titles that are label printing errors. They are not Quad (as I found to my cost) which suggests listings were added to the discography that had not actually been heard by Mark. Having now heard all vinyl versions of this album I can confirm that the only one that is in Quad is the Japanese QS Vinyl. All the others are bog standard stereo. I don't know what the so called EV versions are circulating as digital files but they are probably stereo that's been processed in someway. The Quad Discography needs amending.

What decoding hardware or methods did you employ to reach this conclusion?

 

[Richard A]

What decoding hardware or methods did you employ to reach this conclusion?

I'm using my ears and the latest version of the surround master and the set up has been callibrated correctly. I assume you are referring mainly to Beaver and Krause. The point I didn't make was there almost certainly was only ever one four channel master so any other supposed surround mix would sound the same as the Japanese QS mix.

 

[par4ken]

If there is an EV-4 version made from the same discrete master as the Japanese QS then it will certainly sound very similar when decoded via QS Vario-matrix or the Involve. Do we even know for certain that the Japanese LP is not in fact EV-4 encoded? It is an early release bearing only a "Quadrasonic" sticker. Decoding via an actual EV-4 decoder would prove nothing.

The point of all this is rather moot, I purchased a copy of the Japanese LP after reading this thread. No point messing around with other copies that are likely to be just stereo!

 

[Richard A]

I'm pretty confident it's QS. I'm not an expert on EV but how widely available were EV encoded records?. I've not come across any marked as such. As you can now hear having purchased a Japanese LP it is an impressive mix. I had a discussion with someone who recalls it being demonstrated at a trade show around the time of the stereo release. The Japanese release is later I seem to recall so clearly a Japanese record executive was keen to issue the Quad.

 

[par4ken]

Most very early (circa 1971) quad releases were EV-4. Often they were labeled with something like "New 4-Channel Stereo" or processed in Stereo-4.

Very few are labeled as EV-4, Stereo-4 is the more common designation.

Most labels such as Ovation and Project-3 rather quickly moved over to QS.

Some (or at least one) QS demonstration album actually contains some EV-4 encoded tracks. I guess that it was felt that they were close enough to QS that no one would be the wiser, so no need to re-encode them!

 

[Richard A]

Most very early (circa 1971) quad releases were EV-4. Often they were labeled with something like "New 4-Channel Stereo" or processed in Stereo-4.

Very few are labeled as EV-4, Stereo-4 is the more common designation.

Most labels such as Ovation and Project-3 rather quickly moved over to QS.

Some (or at least one) QS demonstration album actually contains some EV-4 encoded tracks. I guess that it was felt that they were close enough to QS that no one would be the wiser, so no need to re-encode them!

Thanks. Useful info. Well I guess if the Japanese is EV-4 the other ones are most definitely stereo !

 

[steelydave]

I think it's much more likely the Japanese variant is QS and not EV-4 - Warner-Pioneer Japan issued many domestic discs in QS (and SQ) in 1972 and 1973 before their US counterpart settled on CD-4 midway through 1973. More info on this in a discography/history thread I did here.

Sansui (another Japanese company) was also aggressively courting labels, especially Japanese ones, to adopt QS as their format of choice - that's why you see Carole King's Music come out in QS in Japan in 1971 before it was issued anywhere else. I think the same goes for Warner-Pioneer.

As far as the US LPs not being quad encoded at all, could this not be down to QS yielding a much greater front-rear separation? ...and I don't own a Surround Master so I'm speaking froma position of semi-ignorance, but does it even decode EV-4? I thought it decoded SQ and QS.

 

[par4ken]

...and I don't own a Surround Master so I'm speaking froma position of semi-ignorance, but does it even decode EV-4? I thought it decoded SQ and QS.

EV-4 is close enough to QS that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference when decoded by the Surround Master.

If you don't have a Surround Master (or vintage decoder) what do you do with stereo? Listen via only two speakers? Blasphemy!

Stereo-4

 

[J. PUPSTER]

EV-4 is close enough to QS that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference when decoded by the Surround Master.

If you don't have a Surround Master (or vintage decoder) what do you do with stereo? Listen via only two speakers? Blasphemy!

On a sort of a side note here, I may have suggested this someplace else; but it would be cool if somebody like yourself (if you have an EV-4 decoder) could do a detailed shoot-out between the Surround Master in QS and an EV-4 decoder on the same song but with each encoding, provided one exists; which I don't know if one does Maybe Ron ( @rustyandi ) has an EV-4 decoder? Could be differences i.e. of better separation with the SM, but slightly different musical element placement for the EV-4.

 

[steelydave]

If you don't have a Surround Master (or vintage decoder) what do you do with stereo? Listen via only two speakers? Blasphemy!

I listen to all my music on the original number of speakers it was mixed for, so stereo on two, quad on four, 5.1 and so on. People involved in the creative process (artists/producers/engineers/etc.) went to great pains to make these mixes sound a certain way and that's how I want to hear them.

For me, listening to stereo upmixed to quad (or any surround, really) is akin to taking a piece of Silly Putty and pushing it against a picture or comic in a newspaper, and then stretching it (from two speakers to four). In the process of doing that everything gets distorted and distended and for me that makes it really unenjoyable. Especially the phantom instrument placements, which I can clearly locate in a stereo mix become kind of nebulous in an upmix, and at worst swim around the room when the phase information is inconsistent

 

[par4ken]

On a sort of a side note here, I may have suggested this someplace else; but it would be cool if somebody like yourself (if you have an EV-4 decoder) could do a detailed shoot-out between the Surround Master in QS and an EV-4 decoder on the same song but with each encoding, provided one exists; which I don't know if one does Maybe Ron has an EV-4 decoder? Could be differences i.e. of better separation with the SM, but slightly different musical element placement for the EV-4.

There is no point in using an EV-4 decoder. That decoder was little more than an active version of the Dyna Quadaptor. The decode coefficients didn't even match the encode ones. It was designed to give a good surround effect with stereo records. It was designed purely subjectively, doing a good job for it's time.

QS Vario-matrix and Involve will extract far greater separation than the original Stereo-4 decoder.

MidiMagic has even suggested moving your chair farther back in the room to hear the correct perspective. The fronts will decode a bit more toward the sides while the backs will be a bit closer together.

 

[par4ken]

For me, listening to stereo upmixed to quad (or any surround, really) is akin to taking a piece of Silly Putty and pushing it against a picture or comic in a newspaper, and then stretching it (from two speakers to four). In the process of doing that everything gets distorted and distended and for me that makes it really unenjoyable. Especially the phantom instrument placements, which I can clearly locate in a stereo mix become kind of nebulous in an upmix, and at worst swim around the room when the phase information is inconsistent

Listening to stereo "decoded" is esential for me!

In the case of stereo decoded via QS Surround mode or Tate Stereo-enhance mode you still hear everything in proper perspective, nothing is faked. The stereo image is just pulled farther apart. It's like listening to stereo via a magnifying glass! Elements buried in the stereo mix come alive! Anyone not doing so is really missing out! I can't imagine going all those years with no new surround releases without my S&IC!!!

Dolby PL/PLII on the other hand is a poor way to listen to stereo, I have never been impressed. The Surround Master is much better, but it could still use a "Surround" mode.

 

[Richard A]

I think it's much more likely the Japanese variant is QS and not EV-4 - Warner-Pioneer Japan issued many domestic discs in QS (and SQ) in 1972 and 1973 before their US counterpart settled on CD-4 midway through 1973. More info on this in a discography/history thread I did here.

Sansui (another Japanese company) was also aggressively courting labels, especially Japanese ones, to adopt QS as their format of choice - that's why you see Carole King's Music come out in QS in Japan in 1971 before it was issued anywhere else. I think the same goes for Warner-Pioneer.

As far as the US LPs not being quad encoded at all, could this not be down to QS yielding a much greater front-rear separation? ...and I don't own a Surround Master so I'm speaking froma position of semi-ignorance, but does it even decode EV-4? I thought it decoded SQ and QS.

 

[Richard A]

The supposed non Japan unmarked EV- 4 releases sound flat and dull...just like any bog standard stereo LP run through a decoder which is why I'm confident they are plain old standard stereo. The Japanese LP is big spacious and very active as you would expect from QS encoding. Sounds very much like the other Japanese QS LPs I own such as Enoch Lights Spaced Out.

 

[Richard A]

Steelydave I agree.

 

[par4ken]

I listen to all my music on the original number of speakers it was mixed for, so stereo on two, quad on four, 5.1 and so on.

You didn't mention mono! Do you listen to mono through a single speaker? I agree with people such as Phil Spector that mono produces the perfect mix. Nothing that you do with it can screw it up. I like to play mono through multiple speakers. Is that wrong?

This DVD-A disc The British are Coming although described as 5.1 is actually five channels of mono. The crazy thing is that it sounds great!

Sorry, (not sorry) to have veered off topic but the eleventh commandment is "Thou shalt not listen to music through less than four speakers."

and at worst swim around the room when the phase information is inconsistent

Most stereo is mixed with most elements in phase. There are exceptions, I think of Jimi Hendrix and the note on the master tape that says "do not correct phase".

One album in particular comes to mind "I Had Too Much To Dream Last Night" by the Electric Prunes. The mono version sounds "proper" but the stereo is downright weird sounding. It drives the Composer crazy, you would think that it was mixed for quad. That rather weird phasey sound is (equally) present whether you listen through two speakers or decode to four.