CD-4 - The thin line between success and failure, but still in the fight!

[Doug G.]

Mine started working before I had it done.



Doug

 

[edisonbaggins]

While researching something else, I ran across this article on CD-4 setup. Thanks to Kirk Bayne who originally posted this link to Radio Electronics magazine article. It originally appeared in their October 1973 QUADRAPHONIC issue. CD-4 setup article begins on Page 33. https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-Electronics/70s/1973/Radio-Electronics-1973-10.pdf

Redwood City! I think that's @marpow territory. Just one nasty commute from here.

 

[MidiMagic]

One of my main problems is that I'm using an old and heavy office credenza for my Quad set-up and it's definitely not ideal. All the major unhooking and moving gear and furniture; just to get to the back of that credenza to plug stuff in (2 different surge protectors right now) is going to be a massive PITA and take some time as I'm no youngster any longer. I recall our good man Kal Rubinson recently had a large metal rack shelving he was giving away which would have been perfect for my situation, but on the other side of the country for pick up only.

SIGNED -
Radioactive, but still in the fight!

I thought I had that problem licked when I built my media room. There is a 4-foot high recess behind the shelving and I used to crawl back in there to change and fix connections.

I outsmarted myself. I was 44 when I built this room. I am now 73 and can't get down on my knees anymore
.

 

[user 19847]

Thank you for providing the copy of Radio Electronics, very informative articles, they don't make magazines like that anymore!

 

[audiomaster]

There are multitudes of great, discrete Quad albums available nowhere else.

I'm in it for the long haul Ralphie!

Yes but there are so many types of horses?? And colors. But at least they all come quad-hoofed!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

It's been awhile since I've posted here. But, as some of you are aware, I sent my Marantz CD-400B off to be repaired (lots of Cap replacements apparently to get the hum out.) Thanks again to Tim and the fine folks at "J&T Electronics Repair - Nashville 615-939-1574" for the great service!

I've also been trying out a new Cart.; a new in the box AT VM750SH. I'm getting good results with the new cart. also. I believe with meticulously adjusting for weight, balance, Vertical Tracking Angle, anti-skating, stylus rake angle, along with the new Shibata stylus; I've finally got some results that satisfy me. So far, after about 15 CD-4 albums played I haven't had even a hint of sandpaper type sound yet either- knock on wood!

One conversion to digital I'm currently working on is a Japanese CD-4 (actually recorded by Durium - Italy) by Nini Rosso, The Jewels of the Madonna.

I have the 1972 non-English CD4W-7001, which some folks, including myself, believe are pressed on better/heavier vinyl than the English versions.

I was listening today to the song "RECUERDOS DELA ALHAMBRA" and thought what wonderful and beautiful (yet discrete) subtleties are on a recording like this one. It has different acoustic guitars Front Left and Front Right, a Harpsichord in the Front Left, a flute in the Front Right, Nini's trumpet is (as usual) in the Front phantom center, and delicate string orchestration in the rears.

So if you're wondering if it's worth it to stay in the fight and get the most out of your CD-4 gear and music, it definitely is IMO!

This wonderful music may never be available in Quad/MC ever again.

 

[quadjoe]

Pupster, I'm late coming to this thread and read most of it. I was pleased to see you've made the same discovery about the AT VMH750Sh that I have. It is, for me, by far the best cartridge for CD-4 I've ever used (and I have an AT-14Sa, AT-15SS, and JVC 4MD 20X.) The turntable I'm using is a Technics SL-1200 MK2 that I bought new in 2005 from KAB which did a Cardas wiring upgrade to get the correct impedance. I'm really enjoying CD-4 for the most part as I have some worn Quadradiscs that are noisy because of how much they were played. I'm also using discogs to find replacements, which, as you know is costly. Sometimes, I just take my chances on eBay and it works out more than half the time!

I think that the biggest problems with vintage CD-4 cartridges is that replacement styli are rare and costly, and most of the AT XXSa(S) replacements have bonded Shibata styli, not nude mount as they were back in the 70s. The bonded styli have increased tip mass, and I think that is a impediment to good CD-4 playback.

Edit: The receiver I have is a QRX-9001 that was fully restored and modded by QRXRestore.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Pupster, I'm late coming to this thread and read most of it. I was pleased to see you've made the same discovery about the AT VMH750Sh that I have. It is, for me, by far the best cartridge for CD-4 I've ever used (and I have an AT-14Sa, AT-15SS, and JVC 4MD 20X.) The turntable I'm using is a Technics SL-1200 MK2 that I bought new in 2005 from KAB which did a Cardas wiring upgrade to get the correct impedance. I'm really enjoying CD-4 for the most part as I have some worn Quadradiscs that are noisy because of how much they were played. I'm also using discogs to find replacements, which, as you know is costly. Sometimes, I just take my chances on eBay and it works out more than half the time!

I think that the biggest problems with vintage CD-4 cartridges is that replacement styli are rare and costly, and most of the AT XXSa(S) replacements have bonded Shibata styli, not nude mount as they were back in the 70s. The bonded styli have increased tip mass, and I think that is a impediment to good CD-4 playback.

Edit: The receiver I have is a QRX-9001 that was fully restored and modded by QRXRestore.

Great to have more feedback on these issues, thanks!

I also have an AT-15S and an AT440Mlb; but these were purchased used, so I was never really sure about the stylus condition.

I would also say, that in purchasing CD-4's I believe it's best to buy sealed, Mint, or Near Mint (in that order) ONLY, unless it's an extremely rare title then I might go for it and gamble. Often something on discogs listed as NM (probably by visual inspection only) means little and when playing and later De-Clicking with RX 8, I find that they are more like a VG or less. The De-Clicking will typically take out something like 15-30,000 clicks per channel . So that's why I like to convert to digital, as it gets rid of the clicks. Also some RX 8 Spectral Noise reduction helps with any underling vinyl noise. The digital files can also then be EQ mastered to taste, if one feels it is necessary to get a little more out of a particular title.

 

[kfbkfb]

CD-4 works best when the stylus overhang and vertical tracking angle are properly adjusted - what alignment systems are those of you with CD-4 systems that provide high quality quad sound using (alignment devices supplied with your turntable or separate alignment devices)?

Anyone using any special CD-4 record cleaning methods and/or stylus cleaning methods?


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

I use the gauge that came with my BICs for overhang and VTA. That, along with adjusting VTF and anti-skate by ear results in pert' near perfect CD-4 reproduction. I am very surprised if I ever hear any distortion, even on used, obviously not-treated-well records.

Doug

 

[quadjoe]

I use the Mobile Fidelity GeoDisc for cartridge alignment, and VTA adjustments are easily done on my Technics turntable using the chart that is in the operating instructions. I agree that precise alignment gives the very best results. That said, I try not to obsess about it, but I do check it every time I change cartridges or styli. Also, I re-adjust the demodulator after a stylus/cartridge change (even if the same brand and model.) As for cleaning methods, I use a good quality vacuum record cleaner and MoFi fluid and that seems to do the job just fine. Interestingly, Lou Dorren discouraged the use of LAST Record Preservative on CD-4 discs. Sure enough, while the LAST seemed fine at first over the years I've noticed that CD-4 records I've used it on have become noisy (a background hiss.) I bought some of Lou's CD-4 Record Cleaner which is a bit of a pain to use, but it works. I haven't used it in several years, but still have plenty, though I'm not sure if it's still good. They haven't produced it in years, and sadly, Lou passed away in 2014.

 

[quadjoe]

Great to have more feedback on these issues, thanks!

I also have an AT-15S and an AT440Mlb; but these were purchased used, so I was never really sure about the stylus condition.

I would also say, that in purchasing CD-4's I believe it's best to buy sealed, Mint, or Near Mint (in that order) ONLY, unless it's an extremely rare title then I might go for it and gamble. Often something on discogs listed as NM (probably by visual inspection only) means little and when playing and later De-Clicking with RX 8, I find that they are more like a VG or less. The De-Clicking will typically take out something like 15-30,000 clicks per channel . So that's why I like to convert to digital, as it gets rid of the clicks. Also some RX 8 Spectral Noise reduction helps with any underling vinyl noise. The digital files can also then be EQ mastered to taste, if one feels it is necessary to get a little more out of a particular title.

I agree that buying Mint or NM CD-4 records is best, but I'll buy one for a low price and take a chance. You never know what you'll get. I don't have adequate software to transfer my discreet quad formats to digital, so the best I can do is to copy them onto 4-channel RTR tapes (a costly proposition as blank tapes aren't cheap.) It would be great to de-click what I'm recording, however.

 

[Doug G.]

I forgot to mention my cleaning method, which is just washing records in the sink with a sponge and Dawn. First, I press and release the sponge against the wet record, moving the sponge around the record. This creates a vacuum which pulls dirt away from the record surface. Then I wipe the record all the way around several times and then repeat while running water over it to rinse the detergent off, completely. Then, a final rinse without the sponge. Dry with a lint-free dish towel and done. I don't agree with just letting records dry in a rack because, no matter how pure any given water is supposed to be, there will always be some impurities in it, particularly dust and dirt in the air which can attach to the water beads as the record dries.

Of course, each record gets dusted with a Discwasher brush which, in my opinion, MUST be done before each record play.

Further notes on CD-4. Today, I decided to use my CD-4 setup after a while of not doing so. Pickering XUV-4500Q with genuine stylus, tracking at 1.25 grans, on a BIC 1000 turntable, Panasonic SE-405 demodulator, Heathkit AA-2010 quad amp (I usually use two but one isn't powering up so just one set of my stacked Advents), original Advent loudspeakers.

I played several records - The Harman-Kardon setup record (system needed NO adjustment), Hugo Montenegro, Nilsson Schmilsson (particularly "Jump Into the Fire), The Best of the Doors, etc. I know, in another thread, I said that the sonics of the Blu-Ray disc of this in the "Singles" disc were better than the CD-4 but I have to take that back. The CD-4 sounds fabulous. The two are so close, it really isn't worth mentioning. The rest of the records sounded wonderful, too.

Doug

 

[par4ken]

I forgot to mention my cleaning method, which is just washing records in the sink with a sponge and Dawn. First, I press and release the sponge against the wet record, moving the sponge around the record. This creates a vacuum which pulls dirt away from the record surface. Then I wipe the record all the way around several times and then repeat while running water over it to rinse the detergent off, completely. Then, a final rinse without the sponge. Dry with a lint-free dish towel and done. I don't agree with just letting records dry in a rack because, no matter how pure any given water is supposed to be, there will always be some impurities in it, particularly dust and dirt in the air which can attach to the water beads as the record dries.

Of course, each record gets dusted with a Discwasher brush which, in my opinion, MUST be done before each record play.

Further notes on CD-4. Today, I decided to use my CD-4 setup after a while of not doing so. Pickering XUV-4500Q with genuine stylus, tracking at 1.25 grans, on a BIC 1000 turntable, Panasonic SE-405 demodulator, Heathkit AA-2010 quad amp (I usually use two but one isn't powering up so just one set of my stacked Advents), original Advent loudspeakers.

I played several records - The Harman-Kardon setup record (system needed NO adjustment), Hugo Montenegro, Nilsson Schmilsson (particularly "Jump Into the Fire), The Best of the Doors, etc. I know, in another thread, I said that the sonics of the Blu-Ray disc of this in the "Singles" disc were better than the CD-4 but I have to take that back. The CD-4 sounds fabulous. The two are so close, it really isn't worth mentioning. The rest of the records sounded wonderful, too.

Doug

Years ago I tried the kitchen sink record washing method and it was a disaster. Do not try it if you have hard well water, it will leave mineral deposits on the record, basically ruining it. Distilled water is usually recommended for washing and rinsing records.

 

[soesbeout]

Years ago I tried the kitchen sink record washing method and it was a disaster. Do not try it if you have hard well water, it will leave mineral deposits on the record, basically ruining it. Distilled water is usually recommended for washing and rinsing records.

I'm not on a well here in Floriduh but the water in hard anyway even washing the car requires a wipe down with a spray wax to keep the spots off of it.I would hate to use it on my records.

I use the Mobile Fidelity GeoDisc for cartridge alignment, and VTA adjustments are easily done on my Technics turntable using the chart that is in the operating instructions. I agree that precise alignment gives the very best results. That said, I try not to obsess about it, but I do check it every time I change cartridges or styli. Also, I re-adjust the demodulator after a stylus/cartridge change (even if the same brand and model.) As for cleaning methods, I use a good quality vacuum record cleaner and MoFi fluid and that seems to do the job just fine. Interestingly, Lou Dorren discouraged the use of LAST Record Preservative on CD-4 discs. Sure enough, while the LAST seemed fine at first over the years I've noticed that CD-4 records I've used it on have become noisy (a background hiss.) I bought some of Lou's CD-4 Record Cleaner which is a bit of a pain to use, but it works. I haven't used it in several years, but still have plenty, though I'm not sure if it's still good. They haven't produced it in years, and sadly, Lou passed away in 2014.

I still have some too and it works so far. RIP Lou

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Talking about cleaning vinyl; has anyone every notice very tiny strands of vinyl left over in their cleaning tanks after a good wash?

 

[quadjoe]

Talking about cleaning vinyl; has anyone every notice very tiny strands of vinyl left over in their cleaning tanks after a good wash?

I use a vacuum RCM, and I only see what's in the fluid when I pour it out. I think that the tiny strands are leftovers from the manufacturing process. I've seen them when I have cleaned new records, but never when I clean old Lps. If your stylus was doing that to your records, I believe you would hear the damage as you were playing the record. Remember what is tiny to us is enormous at the microscopic level!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I use a vacuum RCM, and I only see what's in the fluid when I pour it out. I think that the tiny strands are leftovers from the manufacturing process. I've seen them when I have cleaned new records, but never when I clean old Lps. If your stylus was doing that to your records, I believe you would hear the damage as you were playing the record. Remember what is tiny to us is enormous at the microscopic level!

That's why I mentioned it, I believe I've seen that on cleaning some new albums before playing them; which is why I advocate for doing that. I can't imagine the damage it could cause. As an example, maybe that sliver gets played into the grooves at first play and sticks there causing a massive bump on the sound when played again.

Begs the question- Do they clean the LPs in any way after they press them? I believe I've read/seen about the outside edge being trimmed etc.

 

[quadjoe]

I'm not sure, but I think they they are not cleaned. I believe the slivers you see are from the trimming.

 

[MidiMagic]

They do trim the flash (excess plastic) off the edge of the disc after pressing it,