Comments Inspired By Doobie Brothers, The - QUADIO [Blu-ray Audio]

[mandrix]

No. The difference is that when you play it as a Blu-ray disc (or backed up disc), the DTS-HD Master Audio encoding remains intact, and if this is bitstreamed to your receiver, it gets decoded correctly. The issue arises when 4.0 is fed to your receiver as PCM, whether from a disc (or backed up disc) or FLAC file.

Hmmm. That 4.0 pcm doesn't play correctly is certainly true, and I do bitstream from the Oppo's.

 

[JanBakker]

Which Onkyo do you have?

TX-NR808

 

[mandrix]

TX-NR808

OK yes I was just looking. Forget most have that stuff posted. I have the NR656 and it seems that the problem is because of the IC they use now, at least in some models. But I've tested a lot and it just doesn't like quad (pcm at least).
It also doesn't like 4.0 mlp/DVD-A.

 

[mandrix]

But anyway it's just a curiousity, I suppose. Maybe Onkyo saved a penny a chip or something. lol.

 

[JediJoker]

It also doesn't like 4.0 mlp/DVD-A.

That would be because your player is decoding the MLP to PCM. I don't know of a single player that bitstreams MLP nor AVR that decodes it.

 

[EricKalet]

That would be because your player is decoding the MLP to PCM. I don't know of a single player that bitstreams MLP nor AVR that decodes it.

My Oppo and Sony both do bitstream MLP and my Onkyo decodes.

 

[JediJoker]

My Oppo and Sony both do bitstream MLP and my Onkyo decodes.

Are you sure? It is my understanding that there is no support for MLP over HDMI. I'll have to check later to see how my Marantz reports DVD-A from my Oppo.

 

[EricKalet]

Are you sure? It is my understanding that there is no support for MLP over HDMI. I'll have to check later to see how my Marantz reports DVD-A from my Oppo.

Keep in mind MLP is basically lossless PCM but compressed 2:1. Before HDMI only players could decode MLP in the player and then send it analog out 5.1. Unless you had Denon Link and both a Denon AVR and DVD player.

 

[JediJoker]

Are you sure? It is my understanding that there is no support for MLP over HDMI. I'll have to check later to see how my Marantz reports DVD-A from my Oppo.

Keep in mind MLP is basically lossless PCM but compressed 2:1. Before HDMI only players could decode MLP in the player and then send it analog out 5.1. Unless you had Denon Link and both a Denon AVR and DVD player.

Right, but HDMI has no support for bitstreaming MLP, either. The only losslessly compressed surround formats it supports are the various flavors of Dolby, DTS, Auro-3D, and DST (compressed DSD). Otherwise, surround can be sent as uncompressed LPCM, DSD, or DoP (DSD-over-PCM). As expected, my Marantz SR6014 reports PCM input from my Oppo BDP-103D playing back DVD-A MLP 5.1. It would be the same with MLP 4.0, getting decoded to LPCM in the player and sent over HDMI uncompressed. This is why you have issues with your AVR and MLP 4.0, because it is sent no differently from any other 4.0 PCM signal (FLAC, Blu-ray LPCM, etc.).

By contrast, any AVR that can decode any flavor of Dolby or DTS will be able to map correctly the channels of 4.0 encoded in those formats, thanks to the metadata they contain. This includes the Quadio releases using DTS-HD Master Audio 4.0, which is why they play back correctly on your AVR.

Admins and moderators: apologies for polluting this poll thread. Feel free to move this discussion to a new thread or to merge with this thread.

 

[mandrix]

That would be because your player is decoding the MLP to PCM. I don't know of a single player that bitstreams MLP nor AVR that decodes it.

....and you would be right, of course.

 

[mandrix]

Right, but HDMI has no support for bitstreaming MLP, either. The only losslessly compressed surround formats it supports are the various flavors of Dolby, DTS, Auro-3D, and DST (compressed DSD). Otherwise, surround can be sent as uncompressed LPCM, DSD, or DoP (DSD-over-PCM). As expected, my Marantz SR6014 reports PCM input from my Oppo BDP-103D playing back DVD-A MLP 5.1. It would be the same with MLP 4.0, getting decoded to LPCM in the player and sent over HDMI uncompressed. This is why you have issues with your AVR and MLP 4.0, because it is sent no differently from any other 4.0 PCM signal (FLAC, Blu-ray LPCM, etc.).

By contrast, any AVR that can decode any flavor of Dolby or DTS will be able to map correctly the channels of 4.0 encoded in those formats, thanks to the metadata they contain. This includes the Quadio releases using DTS-HD Master Audio 4.0, which is why they play back correctly on your AVR.

Admins and moderators: apologies for polluting this poll thread. Feel free to move this discussion to a new thread or to merge with this thread.

I don't think you are polluting anything. I made an honest comment about something that puzzles me and you gave a good answer.
Is that not being part of the community? BTW-Thanks.

 

[JediJoker]

I don't think you are polluting anything. I made an honest comment about something that puzzles me and you gave a good answer.
Is that not being part of the community? BTW-Thanks.

Happy to help. Re: polluting, there's an unwritten rule here that poll threads are to be reserved for discussion only directly related to the album in question. This went off on quite a tangent, so it really doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[EricKalet]

Right, but HDMI has no support for bitstreaming MLP, either. The only losslessly compressed surround formats it supports are the various flavors of Dolby, DTS, Auro-3D, and DST (compressed DSD). Otherwise, surround can be sent as uncompressed LPCM, DSD, or DoP (DSD-over-PCM). As expected, my Marantz SR6014 reports PCM input from my Oppo BDP-103D playing back DVD-A MLP 5.1. It would be the same with MLP 4.0, getting decoded to LPCM in the player and sent over HDMI uncompressed. This is why you have issues with your AVR and MLP 4.0, because it is sent no differently from any other 4.0 PCM signal (FLAC, Blu-ray LPCM, etc.).

By contrast, any AVR that can decode any flavor of Dolby or DTS will be able to map correctly the channels of 4.0 encoded in those formats, thanks to the metadata they contain. This includes the Quadio releases using DTS-HD Master Audio 4.0, which is why they play back correctly on your AVR.

Admins and moderators: apologies for polluting this poll thread. Feel free to move this discussion to a new thread or to merge with this thread.

I always thought that MLP was basically an "unfold" of PCM, so the player unfolds PPCM to PCM and streams it via HDMI to the AVR, which then decodes. But ultimately MLP is still PCM just losslessly compressed.

 

[Tres Discrete]

So...I am fairly new to the surround game, and have been watching this forum for a couple of years from the sidelines...but this Doobies set has prompted me to join the forum to ask a question regarding speaker management.
I have a 7.1 set up, and when I first played “Toulouse Street”, the front of my set up seemed a bit cacophonous, overwhelming the back speakers.
I remembered reading the insert from Rhino in regard to “Bass Management”, and once I figured out what that actually meant, I disabled the subwoofer (along with the “presence” speakers), and suddenly everything balanced perfectly On the 4 tower speakers. The clarity of a song like “Mamaloi” was almost astonishing - especially considering it is 50 years old.
My question is: do you all adjust your speakers like this between 5.1 and Quad? it seems quite rewarding in this case.
Is this normal behavior? Should I seek counseling? Medication?
Just trying to figure it all out...thanks.

 

[jimfisheye]

The truth is there are just SO many dang surround systems out there and from stand alone hi-fi components to computer based. You might think there would be defaults and they would default to 1:1 how the mix was intended to be heard...
You just have to pay extra attention to the switches/settings/menus. It helps to have something familiar to check things with.

Sometimes you can find user friendly one size fits all settings and everything always comes out of the correct speakers. Depends on the system. If nothing else you'll get used to a couple settings and it will be more or less like a selector switch to flip.

Normal? Unfortunately, yes.
Counseling? That's what the music is for.
Um, no comment on the last.

 

[JediJoker]

I always thought that MLP was basically an "unfold" of PCM, so the player unfolds PPCM to PCM and streams it via HDMI to the AVR, which then decodes. But ultimately MLP is still PCM just losslessly compressed.

"Unfold," "decode;" call it what you will, but it happens in the player and leaves as LPCM over HDMI. No decoding necessary at the AVR, only conversion to analog. (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, FLAC, MLP, APE, ALAC, etc.... They're all "ultimately PCM just losslessly compressed." Not sure what special point you're trying to make about MLP vs. other lossless formats.)

 

[EricKalet]

"Unfold," "decode;" call it what you will, but it happens in the player and leaves as LPCM over HDMI. No decoding necessary at the AVR, only conversion to analog. (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, FLAC, MLP, APE, ALAC, etc.... They're all "ultimately PCM just losslessly compressed." Not sure what special point you're trying to make about MLP vs. other lossless formats.)

For whatever reason in my head was that the MLP was being sent and that my AVR was doing the heavy lifting not the player. All good.

 

[bktouchstone]

So...I am fairly new to the surround game, and have been watching this forum for a couple of years from the sidelines...but this Doobies set has prompted me to join the forum to ask a question regarding speaker management.
I have a 7.1 set up, and when I first played “Toulouse Street”, the front of my set up seemed a bit cacophonous, overwhelming the back speakers.
I remembered reading the insert from Rhino in regard to “Bass Management”, and once I figured out what that actually meant, I disabled the subwoofer (along with the “presence” speakers), and suddenly everything balanced perfectly On the 4 tower speakers. The clarity of a song like “Mamaloi” was almost astonishing - especially considering it is 50 years old.
My question is: do you all adjust your speakers like this between 5.1 and Quad? it seems quite rewarding in this case.
Is this normal behavior? Should I seek counseling? Medication?
Just trying to figure it all out...thanks.

It's good you are messing around to see what works best. I use my system for music and movies and the LFE treatments by the sound designers are not the same. So it is hard to find "one setting to rule the all." For the Doobies, I can use my AVR's "Pure Audio" mode which will play 4 channel no LFE. Sounds great! Or I can use DTS Master Audio, which by design on my system will direct frequencies under 80hz to the sub-woofer. My LFE for music in DTS Master Audio is -20 db. And then on top of that I do a "quick adjustment" through the AVR to reduce 2 db more. That seems perfect for the Doobies. Bass is punchy, and the speakers have that little extra sparkle because the AVR isn't laboring over the bass. This seems to produce sound that is great between AVR volume settings of 57 to 70 (could be decibels or it could be my sleep number - I don't really know). Beyond that it starts to overwhelm my room acoustics or possibly my ears.

My guidelines for adjusting my sound system are:
1. a lot of auto eq features in modern AVRs do a great job of getting you close to "there."
2. When you make adjustments to find the best sound, remember what you did so you can undo it.
3. Satisfaction is elusive. The quality of your hearing changes throughout the day. Mine is best in the morning. Worse after coming home from my commute. Different masterings equals different sound so "optimal" settings can vary from one recording to the next.
4. Make sure you reserve time for your spouse. This is so you can keep an eye on them to make sure they don't go near your sound system. They may inquire how the remote works and insist that you explain it to them but don't do it. Nothing is worse than to try to find and undo someone else's adjustments. If you can set up a code access to lock them out of the critical menus, then maybe.

Welcome to this wonderful hobby and this great forum! Looking forward to your further comments and contributions.

 

[Tres Discrete]

The truth is there are just SO many dang surround systems out there and from stand alone hi-fi components to computer based. You might think there would be defaults and they would default to 1:1 how the mix was intended to be heard...
You just have to pay extra attention to the switches/settings/menus. It helps to have something familiar to check things with.

Sometimes you can find user friendly one size fits all settings and everything always comes out of the correct speakers. Depends on the system. If nothing else you'll get used to a couple settings and it will be more or less like a selector switch to flip.

Normal? Unfortunately, yes.
Counseling? That's what the music is for.
Um, no comment on the last.

Thanks for your response. It can get a bit confusing...for instance after I posted this, I listened to the Dutton Vocalion Quad reissue of Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, and that did not knock me out on 4 speakers...5.1 sounds better. Go figure. At times I wish there was a “set it and forget it” button!

 

[Tres Discrete]

It's good you are messing around to see what works best. I use my system for music and movies and the LFE treatments by the sound designers are not the same. So it is hard to find "one setting to rule the all." For the Doobies, I can use my AVR's "Pure Audio" mode which will play 4 channel no LFE. Sounds great! Or I can use DTS Master Audio, which by design on my system will direct frequencies under 80hz to the sub-woofer. My LFE for music in DTS Master Audio is -20 db. And then on top of that I do a "quick adjustment" through the AVR to reduce 2 db more. That seems perfect for the Doobies. Bass is punchy, and the speakers have that little extra sparkle because the AVR isn't laboring over the bass. This seems to produce sound that is great between AVR volume settings of 57 to 70 (could be decibels or it could be my sleep number - I don't really know). Beyond that it starts to overwhelm my room acoustics or possibly my ears.

My guidelines for adjusting my sound system are:
1. a lot of auto eq features in modern AVRs do a great job of getting you close to "there."
2. When you make adjustments to find the best sound, remember what you did so you can undo it.
3. Satisfaction is elusive. The quality of your hearing changes throughout the day. Mine is best in the morning. Worse after coming home from my commute. Different masterings equals different sound so "optimal" settings can vary from one recording to the next.
4. Make sure you reserve time for your spouse. This is so you can keep an eye on them to make sure they don't go near your sound system. They may inquire how the remote works and insist that you explain it to them but don't do it. Nothing is worse than to try to find and undo someone else's adjustments. If you can set up a code access to lock them out of the critical menus, then maybe.

Welcome to this wonderful hobby and this great forum! Looking forward to your further comments and contributions.

Thank you for your reply (especially as it relates to the spouse!) and your welcome.
I would like to thank you and many others on this forum very much for all the info posted here which has helped me discern which releases I might want to purchase over the last couple of years.
My wallet, on the other hand, would like to thank you all VERY LITTLE for the same reason - since virtually everything I have wanted is out of print!